View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #231
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If people had an inalienable right to life, Hitler could have shot them each 6000 times and they would be unharmed.

    Hitler alienated their right to life from them, which demonstrates their right to life was not inalienable, thus not a Natural Right.
    Having the ability to deny a person of a right doesn't mean he's forfeited his entitlement to it. If, for example, I ask you for a loan and as soon as you hand over the money I say, "Thanks for the gift" you still have a right to be repaid. Even if you wore a Size 2 hat and I was able to repeat the process 6,000 times the logic of this would still hold true.
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  2. #232
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Scope - covereage - cranistans - frangeleo's - all nonsense trying to justify somebody saying the equal of molesting children is wrong while buggering a 12 years old as the words pour from their lips. If that is offensive - it is meant to be since slavery is about as offensive as one can get.

    And you are wrong that they believed natural rights were only there for them. Jefferson clearly wrote that ALL MEN were included. And Jeffersons own writings made it very very clear leaving no doubt that he was well aware that Africans were human beings and what was being done was an abomination.
    have you ever come close to proving your claims about the founders? we get the fact that you pretend that the bill of rights really didn't say what the words say because some OTHERS who signed the DOI didn't really believe that ALL MEN were created equal due to slavery

    but the silly grand canyon level jump you make has never been established as true
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    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
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    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  3. #233
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you cannot excersize the right, the right still exists but you have been alienated from it. It is still a right but it is not an inalienable right.
    That convenient rationalization ignores reality. If you have something to use or exercise- then you really truly do have it. If you do not have something to use or exercise - then you don't. Pure and simple that is the way that reality works. I strongly suspect that Africans used as slaves in the States would find cold comfort in the assertion that they really had liberty but it was an inconvenient matter that they were just temporarily alienated from it.

    All the fancy rationalizations and pretty words do not change that simple reality.

    Of course the problem here is that all this natural rights nonsense is not at all based on reality and the way that things work in the real world with real people and real governments. Its all fancy sounding theory that came from the dilettante class trying to counter the idea of divine right of kings.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Having the ability to deny a person of a right doesn't mean he's forfeited his entitlement to it.
    I never claimed the contrary.

    We're discussing "Natural Right", which must be inalienable. If a given right can be infringed it is still some kind of right, just not a Natural Right.

  5. #235
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    have you ever come close to proving your claims about the founders?
    Absolutely. The FACT that Jefferson owned over 100 slaves is well documented and you have been given that evidence in the past. You have also been given evidence from the Monticello website of Jefferson and slavery and his own position. Do you question that FACT and need to see it again?

    http://www.monticello.org/site/plant...on-and-slavery

    Jefferson considered slavery to be horribly wrong and he knew that Africans were humans - men. The ownership of he and others of slaves was a direct and complete opposite of the hollow lies that all men are created equal and have rights including liberty.

    Only the extremely uniformed or the naive or the gullible would dare to judge a mans hollow words as more meaningful rather than the much stronger and opposite actions that openly defecate upon those high sounding pronouncements.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-18-15 at 09:29 AM.
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  6. #236
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Perfect example to prove my argument. If my car is stolen, it's still my car, but I have been alienated from it.
    You have been alienated from the use of it, not the ownership of it.

    You can be alienated from the execution of your rights, but not from the right itself.

    Someone can punish you or harm you for believing in a religious notion and expressing that...but they can't physically force you to be unable to have belief and practice that belief. They can simply put significant deterrents against it that make you choose not to engage in that right, but they can't take the inherent right away from you.
    Imagine if Walmart owned access to all the streets in your town. You can go to Target or the mom and pop downtown if you want, but all the roads leading there require a toll, whereas the roads leading to Walmart are free. That is not the avenue the internet needs to go down.

  7. #237
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You have been alienated from the use of it, not the ownership of it.

    You can be alienated from the execution of your rights, but not from the right itself.

    Someone can punish you or harm you for believing in a religious notion and expressing that...but they can't physically force you to be unable to have belief and practice that belief. They can simply put significant deterrents against it that make you choose not to engage in that right, but they can't take the inherent right away from you.
    "ownership of it"!?!?!?!?! Slaves in America - especially the ones born here - never had any liberty to own in the first place. They had "ownership" of nothing in the way of liberty or rights.

    That convenient rationalization ignores reality. If you have something to use or exercise- then you really truly do have it. If you do not have something to use or exercise - then you don't. And all the fancy comparisons to other things like objects are irrelevant. Pure and simple that is the way that reality works. I strongly suspect that Africans used as slaves in the States would find cold comfort in the assertion that they really had liberty but it was an inconvenient matter that they were just temporarily alienated from it.

    All the fancy rationalizations and pretty words do not change that simple reality.

    Of course the problem here is that all this natural rights nonsense is not at all based on reality and the way that things work in the real world with real people and real governments. Its all fancy sounding theory that came from the dilettante class trying to counter the idea of divine right of kings. The philosophers had to come up to counter the idea of divine right and what they countered with was an even higher power - God himself giving all men rights. The entire natural rights theory came about because they needed to get beyond the practical effects of divine right. In a sense - it was power politics and a weapon used to lay the foundation to weakening the power of the king and expand power among the people.

    But it is no longer the 1600's and we do not need to come up with fancy talk to convince the world that the king should not rule because he was blessed by the gods. Sadly, some are still stuck in the mindset of the 1600's on this matter.
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You have been alienated from the use of it, not the ownership of it.
    Right, and that means it's not a natural right.

  9. #239
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    The United Nation's International Bill of Human Rights entered into force in 1976

    Start learning about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...f_Human_Rights

    It would be nice if the UN could enforce that all over this planet.




    "Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
    Last edited by shrubnose; 05-18-15 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #240
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Absolutely. The FACT that Jefferson owned over 100 slaves is well documented and you have been given that evidence in the past. You have also been given evidence from the Monticello website of Jefferson and slavery and his own position. Do you question that FACT and need to see it again?

    http://www.monticello.org/site/plant...on-and-slavery

    Jefferson considered slavery to be horribly wrong and he knew that Africans were humans - men. The ownership of he and others of slaves was a direct and complete opposite of the hollow lies that all men are created equal and have rights including liberty.

    Only the extremely uniformed or the naive or the gullible would dare to judge a mans hollow words as more meaningful rather than the much stronger and opposite actions that openly defecate upon those high sounding pronouncements.
    the fact that Jefferson owned 100 slaves in no way proves or even insinuates he believed that white men like him did NOT have natural rights

    BTW he didn't' write the 2nd Amendment or the bill of rights so all this silly diversion over slavery and the DOI is dilatory nonsense

    Only the extremely dishonest or those who know they have no argument would dare to claim that the Bill of rights didn't say what the language of said bill said because OTHER men owned slaves and signed the DOI

    For those who don't follow this argument, I have argued that interpreting the scope of the Bill of rights-especially the second amendment must involve an understanding of natural rights

    Haymarket claims that since some of the men who SIGNED the Declaration of Independence really didn't believe that SLAVES, Indians and others unlike the signers had said rights, the people who WROTE and ratified the BILL OF RIGHTS really didn't believe said rights applied to WHITE MEN like them
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

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