View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #211
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the issue is not whether natural rights exist or do not exist

    the issue is-did those who founded this nation believe in natural rights (YES)

    and as a result, did their belief frame the way the Bill of rights was written or how it should be interpreted (YES)
    They did not believe in he PR statement they released and their own lives unduly activities are proof that their words were obvious lies the moment they were placed to parchment,
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  2. #212
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    A belief in natural rights is just a recognition of reality. Man is a rational being whose survival depends upon his rational mind. Reason cannot function in a world dominated by force and violence. Rights will exist one way or another. Either they will be innate in each man equally, or they will be reserved to the strong whose rights are the product of violence and coercion. Reason demands the former because it cannot exist in the latter. To survive, as man, requires the freedom to act according to ones own conscience. Since it is necessary that man do so, it is right that man do so. That is basically all that natural rights entail.

    I don't know about any of that. From everything I have heard, Jefferson believed it, as did all of the Founders.
    First, you are confusing simple abilities that the human species has with the concept of rights.

    Second, Jefferson owned over 100 slaves in his lifetime and obviously did NOT believe that ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL and had the rights of LIBERTY and LIFE among others.
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  3. #213
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You can't separate the concept of a right from morality. For example, if a society decides as a matter of convention that a child has a right to eat an ice cream cone on a public street without being molested what would be the point if a bully could just steal it from him? But then I can see why you'd want to avoid the subject of making evaluative judgments, because then you're left with the ticklish task of explaining how the white majority in South Africa wasn't wrong in depriving blacks of basic human rights, since their ability to deprive blacks of their rights emanated from force. I suppose you could continue to keep your mouth shut, in which case, whether you realize if or not, you're nonetheless making a normative judgment concerning what the state of affairs in the country should have been. ("Force makes right. Ergo because the whites were more powerful, they were right." If rights emanate neither from force nor natural law, then you're left with convention, unless you can do what no one else has done and come up with another source for the concept of a "right." Good luck utilizing convention to explain how the black majority agreed to make themselves second-class citizens.)
    Lots of people and the government they create and the rules and laws they institute can be perfectly decent without any belief in natural rights. The ancient Golden Rule is one example.

    a society can treat people decently or not and a belief in natural rights has precious little to do with it. The very man who wrote the clearest statement of a belief in natural rights in our Declaration of Independence -Jefferson - owned over 100 slaves and clearly did not practice the hollow words he placed upon parchment. The same could be same for other signers as well or those who later created a government that did nothing about millions of people in a legal condition of slavery which denied them both life and liberty.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-18-15 at 06:37 AM.
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  4. #214
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If people had an inalienable right to life, Hitler could have shot them each 6000 times and they would be unharmed.
    You are confusing "natural rights" with "natural laws". The claim that there are natural rights does not mean that they cannot be abused.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  5. #215
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    First, you are confusing simple abilities that the human species has with the concept of rights.

    Second, Jefferson owned over 100 slaves in his lifetime and obviously did NOT believe that ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL and had the rights of LIBERTY and LIFE among others.
    Actually he did . He described slavery as an abominable crime, considered it a violation of the founding beliefs of the nation, tried to limit and restrict it so that it would die naturally (sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing), and lamented that he could not find a practical solution to its' absolution.

    You could say that his actions were not perfectly self-sacrificial in order to serve his beliefs, and I think you'd get most folks to agree with you on the hypocrisy. But that doesn't change his belief system.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  6. #216
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    For that reason alone, only a few should be allowed to consider it a fiction.
    So long as none of them are in charge.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  7. #217
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No it isn't. If they wrote about unicorns and leprechauns, it wouldn't make unicorns and leprechauns real. That's what we're trying to establish here. It doesn't matter what they thought about gods or rights, it matters whether what they thought was actually so. Are these natural rights actually real? If not, all the faith in the world, all the belief in the world is entirely irrelevant because they were simply wrong.
    that's beyond stupid since unicorns are not the foundation of our law.
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  8. #218
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    But if morality is simply "the expression of the survival instinct above the individual level", shouldn't actions that support the survival of the most people be the most moral. Isn't a soldier more moral than a doctor, simply because they're committed to the survival of a nation, rather than individual patients?
    A soldier who fights in wars unrelated to the survival of the nation, such as the US conflict in Afghanistan? Certanly not. Afghanistan is about imperialism, not survival.

  9. #219
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    They did not believe in he PR statement they released and their own lives unduly activities are proof that their words were obvious lies the moment they were placed to parchment,
    you have made that claim many a time and it continually fails to accurately discuss the difference between scope and coverage. The founders certainly believed the natural rights were there for THEM
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  10. #220
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are confusing "natural rights" with "natural laws". The claim that there are natural rights does not mean that they cannot be abused.
    http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1206.html

    "[i]Political theorists since the time of the ancient Greeks have argued in support of the existence of natural rights, meaning those rights that men possessed as a gift from nature (or God) prior to the formation of governments. It is generally held that those rights belong equally to all men at birth and cannot be taken away[i]".

    If it can be taken away, it is not a natural right. Name something you think is a Natural Right and we'll test it.

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