View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #201
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It seems that if you have no natural rights, then effectively, you have no rights at all, only privileges. You therefore have no cause to complain when they are abused.

    Yet abuse the rights of those who claim there are no such things and watch to see if they get upset. It is similar to those who claim that there is no universal morality, who will nonetheless get upset when you break in front of them in line, or steal their car. Quite quickly you will find that they appeal to a standard whose existence they deny.
    For that reason alone, only a few should be allowed to consider it a fiction.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I think both issues are equally important. 1) that natural rights exist 2) that the Founders believed it and wrote it into our Constitution. If you want to see #2 eroded and destroyed, say nothing while they erode and destroy #1.
    We can test this. A natural right is said to be inalienable. Name the right, and let's see if anyone has ever been stripped of it. If no one has been stripped of the right you name, it is indeed inalienable and therefore a naural right. If any person has ever been stripped of the right you name, the right is certanly not inalienable and thus not a natural right.

    Since I'm at work, my method of testing will be a Google serch. I will report back the key words I use for the serch and a link to resulting hits.

    Please name a right and we'll put it to the question.

  3. #203
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You don't have a natural right to life. You have a granted right to life, provided by the society in which you live. Welcome to reality.
    Hitler murdered millions. So did Pol Pot, and Mao, and Stalin. When the leaders of those societies chose to end the lives of those tens of millions that was wrong, and you can't make it right simply by saying that's reality.
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  4. #204
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Hitler murdered millions. So did Pol Pot, and Mao, and Stalin. When the leaders of those societies chose to end the lives of those tens of millions that was wrong, and you can't make it right simply by saying that's reality.
    If people had an inalienable right to life, Hitler could have shot them each 6000 times and they would be unharmed.

    Hitler alienated their right to life from them, which demonstrates their right to life was not inalienable, thus not a Natural Right.

  5. #205
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Hitler murdered millions. So did Pol Pot, and Mao, and Stalin. When the leaders of those societies chose to end the lives of those tens of millions that was wrong, and you can't make it right simply by saying that's reality.
    For the sake of argument, even though I agree it was wrong because that's how we view things in the western world, how do you know those things were wrong? What is your criteria? Right and wrong are entirely subjective, surely the Nazis didn't think that what they were doing was wrong or they wouldn't have done it. So please, demonstrate that you have some kind of correct moral high ground that goes beyond subjective claims. I don't think you can do it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #206
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It seems that if you have no natural rights, then effectively, you have no rights at all, only privileges. You therefore have no cause to complain when they are abused.

    Yet abuse the rights of those who claim there are no such things and watch to see if they get upset. It is similar to those who claim that there is no universal morality, who will nonetheless get upset when you break in front of them in line, or steal their car. Quite quickly you will find that they appeal to a standard whose existence they deny.
    Is there a natural right to not get cut in front of in a queue? The recognition of morality as subjective doesn't make it any less important. Your founding fathers refused to recognise a natural right to property, does that make it OK for you to steal?
    So follow me into the desert
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Is there a natural right to not get cut in front of in a queue? The recognition of morality as subjective doesn't make it any less important. Your founding fathers refused to recognise a natural right to property, does that make it OK for you to steal?
    Morality is the expression of the survival instinct above the individual level.

  8. #208
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Morality is the expression of the survival instinct above the individual level.
    So is it more moral to betray your family for your country, or your country for your family?
    So follow me into the desert
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  9. #209
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    So is it more moral to betray your family for your country, or your country for your family?
    That depends on the family, country, and the spicific betrayal.

    Is your 'family' your wife whom you once promised never to leave but now your country needs your skills in the military? Is your country ran by an unjust dictator whom you 'betray' by fleeing with your family?
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-18-15 at 05:48 AM.

  10. #210
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That depends on the family, country, and the spicific betrayal.

    Is your 'family' your wife whom you once promised never to leave but now your country needs your skills in the military? Is your country ran by an unjust dictator whom you 'betray' by fleeing with your family?
    But if morality is simply "the expression of the survival instinct above the individual level", shouldn't actions that support the survival of the most people be the most moral. Isn't a soldier more moral than a doctor, simply because they're committed to the survival of a nation, rather than individual patients?
    So follow me into the desert
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