View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #191
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, there is no right way for any of those creatures to live at all. People live in all kinds of different ways. So do mice. So do ants. So do bears. What you're really arguing for is your preferred way to live. It's your opinion. If you want the "natural" way for man to live, you're back to living in caves and off the land. If you want to do that, feel free.
    None of that is true, of course. There is a right way for bears to live and that is how they live. Same with mice and ants. Instinct and natural appetite guides their decisions. Ours are guided by reason. And there is a right way for rational animals to live and it isn't in caves as you absurdly suggest. If you would actually apply reason for a moment you would realize that it is exactly because of our rational minds that we don't live in caves. Not sure why you would even argue this point. It is fairly obvious even to those who don't have much going on upstairs.

  2. #192
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have a way with words making that sound really deep. Well done. But truthfully, it it no way shape or form negates the reality that a belief in natural rights is simply a belief held because the believer opts to believe it. And lets be really truthful Fletch, even Jefferson who wrote that line about rights in the Declaration did not believe what he wrote and he knew it was only the equal of a public relations press release.
    the issue is not whether natural rights exist or do not exist

    the issue is-did those who founded this nation believe in natural rights (YES)

    and as a result, did their belief frame the way the Bill of rights was written or how it should be interpreted (YES)
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  3. #193
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have a way with words making that sound really deep. Well done. But truthfully, it it no way shape or form negates the reality that a belief in natural rights is simply a belief held because the believer opts to believe it.
    A belief in natural rights is just a recognition of reality. Man is a rational being whose survival depends upon his rational mind. Reason cannot function in a world dominated by force and violence. Rights will exist one way or another. Either they will be innate in each man equally, or they will be reserved to the strong whose rights are the product of violence and coercion. Reason demands the former because it cannot exist in the latter. To survive, as man, requires the freedom to act according to ones own conscience. Since it is necessary that man do so, it is right that man do so. That is basically all that natural rights entail.

    And lets be really truthful Fletch, even Jefferson who wrote that line about rights in the Declaration did not believe what he wrote and he knew it was only the equal of a public relations press release.
    I don't know about any of that. From everything I have heard, Jefferson believed it, as did all of the Founders.

  4. #194
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the issue is not whether natural rights exist or do not exist

    the issue is-did those who founded this nation believe in natural rights (YES)

    and as a result, did their belief frame the way the Bill of rights was written or how it should be interpreted (YES)
    I think both issues are equally important. 1) that natural rights exist 2) that the Founders believed it and wrote it into our Constitution. If you want to see #2 eroded and destroyed, say nothing while they erode and destroy #1.

  5. #195
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The introduction of RIGHT and WRONG in terms of evaluative judgments was NOT part of my explanation. It is entirely of your own introduction.
    You can't separate the concept of a right from morality. For example, if a society decides as a matter of convention that a child has a right to eat an ice cream cone on a public street without being molested what would be the point if a bully could just steal it from him? But then I can see why you'd want to avoid the subject of making evaluative judgments, because then you're left with the ticklish task of explaining how the white majority in South Africa wasn't wrong in depriving blacks of basic human rights, since their ability to deprive blacks of their rights emanated from force. I suppose you could continue to keep your mouth shut, in which case, whether you realize if or not, you're nonetheless making a normative judgment concerning what the state of affairs in the country should have been. ("Force makes right. Ergo because the whites were more powerful, they were right." If rights emanate neither from force nor natural law, then you're left with convention, unless you can do what no one else has done and come up with another source for the concept of a "right." Good luck utilizing convention to explain how the black majority agreed to make themselves second-class citizens.)
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  6. #196
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Obviously evolution is stuck and possibly reversing itself.

    Every time the topic of "Natural Rights" I find it a bit disturbing how so many people believe that humanity is lacking in the intellectual ability to understand "cause and effect". Or just as fascinating is the number of folks who believe that rights are inherent, which is like saying everybody was born believing in the tooth fairy.

    Rights are objective. Rights were derived from societies scrutinizing human behaviors in a social context - over a very long period.

    Gezzzzzzzzzus...people, give human beings a bit more credit for their intellect, logic, and reason. No magic wands have been used in the creation of rights.

  7. #197
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Exactly where did you get the "right to get plugged in the brain" from? You're just pulling this stuff out of your ass and thinking people are going to take you seriously? Think again.
    Well, we're discussing natural rights, are we not? If I don't have a natural right to life, then what am I left with? Not much, except the "right" to take a slug to my brain.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The dude with the .38 just robbed you of your right. Rights sound good, make us feel warm and secure, and that's fine, that's good for humans, but there's simply no guarantees.
    True. That's why we have prisons.
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  9. #199
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what the founders believed in is completely relevant in interpreting the words they wrote.

    this is not an issue for an atheistic attack on God but rather constitutional interpretation
    No it isn't. If they wrote about unicorns and leprechauns, it wouldn't make unicorns and leprechauns real. That's what we're trying to establish here. It doesn't matter what they thought about gods or rights, it matters whether what they thought was actually so. Are these natural rights actually real? If not, all the faith in the world, all the belief in the world is entirely irrelevant because they were simply wrong.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #200
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    Well, we're discussing natural rights, are we not? If I don't have a natural right to life, then what am I left with? Not much, except the "right" to take a slug to my brain.
    You don't have a natural right to life. You have a granted right to life, provided by the society in which you live. Welcome to reality.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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