View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

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  • Yes

    36 41.38%
  • No

    51 58.62%
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Thread: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

  1. #181
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    post a link here when you do it. I would like watch that.
    It'll be up on my channel sometime tomorrow, at least that's the plan. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2E...bPncoXrYJhCJbA
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Actually, I'm just about to throw a video about that up on my YouTube channel tomorrow. It's just so ridiculous.
    You,are more than welcome to use my term "sementical hop-scotch"

  3. #183
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not one thing in that quote dump negates the reality that a belief in natural rights is just that - an unprovable belief held by a believer because they want to believe it.
    Objectively speaking, is there aright way for a bear to live? A mouse? An ant? What about a man? You determine the right way for a creature to live by examining its nature. The means of survival for a rational creature is different from the other irrational animals. Rational animals survive by rational thought. Rights simply answer the question: what is the right way for man to live as man. If man is to live by the use of his mind, it is right that he do so and be free to do so; it is right that he labor in pursuit of his own ends and to keep the product of that labor. That is ultimately what is meant by the right to life, liberty, the acquisition of property and the pursuit of happiness.

  4. #184
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Objectively speaking, is there aright way for a bear to live? A mouse? An ant? What about a man? You determine the right way for a creature to live by examining its nature. The means of survival for a rational creature is different from the other irrational animals. Rational animals survive by rational thought. Rights simply answer the question: what is the right way for man to live as man. If man is to live by the use of his mind, it is right that he do so and be free to do so; it is right that he labor in pursuit of his own ends and to keep the product of that labor. That is ultimately what is meant by the right to life, liberty, the acquisition of property and the pursuit of happiness.
    No, there is no right way for any of those creatures to live at all. People live in all kinds of different ways. So do mice. So do ants. So do bears. What you're really arguing for is your preferred way to live. It's your opinion. If you want the "natural" way for man to live, you're back to living in caves and off the land. If you want to do that, feel free.
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  5. #185
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic seems to have popped up in a few threads recently so I thought I'd put this together. Put simply do you believe in the concept of natural rights? That is to say rights that are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable".

    Personally I don't. I think that Hobbes had it right when he intimated that the only 'natural right' that a human being possesses is the right to strive for their own survival. Everything else exists only at the sufferance of your own strength or the kindness of others. It is part of what makes civilization so essential and so valuable, because by creating a society we attempt to lift ourselves out of that war of all against all. This allows for freedom of speech, property rights, press freedoms, freedom of worship, etc. Absent organized society these 'rights' would be purely theoretical.
    1) I don't believe in answering anonymous polls

    2) I believe that the founders of the USA believed in natural rights and thus our constitution cannot be properly interpreted without understanding natural rights

    3) the rights recognized in the constitution can only be properly set forth in terms of scope and coverage by reference to natural rights as understood by the founders
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  6. #186
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) I don't believe in answering anonymous polls
    Why? Granted, it might make the results questionable at best, but clicking a button doesn't hurt anything, does it?

    2) I believe that the founders of the USA believed in natural rights and thus our constitution cannot be properly interpreted without understanding natural rights
    Who cares what they believed? It only matters what can be demonstrated to be actually true. This leads to little more than founding father worship.

    3) the rights recognized in the constitution can only be properly set forth in terms of scope and coverage by reference to natural rights as understood by the founders
    As believed by the founders, not as understood. They had no more basis for declaring these things to actually exist in reality than modern libertarians do. It's all wishful thinking. It was wishful thinking then, it is wishful thinking now, and until someone comes up with actual evidence that these things have any real existence in the real world, rather than just being philosophical masturbation, they will continue to be wishful thinking into the future. Belief doesn't equate to truth. We keep asking for truth, all we keep getting is blind faith.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #187
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    It seems that if you have no natural rights, then effectively, you have no rights at all, only privileges. You therefore have no cause to complain when they are abused.

    Yet abuse the rights of those who claim there are no such things and watch to see if they get upset. It is similar to those who claim that there is no universal morality, who will nonetheless get upset when you break in front of them in line, or steal their car. Quite quickly you will find that they appeal to a standard whose existence they deny.
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  8. #188
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Why? Granted, it might make the results questionable at best, but clicking a button doesn't hurt anything, does it?



    Who cares what they believed? It only matters what can be demonstrated to be actually true. This leads to little more than founding father worship.



    As believed by the founders, not as understood. They had no more basis for declaring these things to actually exist in reality than modern libertarians do. It's all wishful thinking. It was wishful thinking then, it is wishful thinking now, and until someone comes up with actual evidence that these things have any real existence in the real world, rather than just being philosophical masturbation, they will continue to be wishful thinking into the future. Belief doesn't equate to truth. We keep asking for truth, all we keep getting is blind faith.
    what the founders believed in is completely relevant in interpreting the words they wrote.

    this is not an issue for an atheistic attack on God but rather constitutional interpretation
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  9. #189
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Objectively speaking, is there aright way for a bear to live? A mouse? An ant? What about a man? You determine the right way for a creature to live by examining its nature. The means of survival for a rational creature is different from the other irrational animals. Rational animals survive by rational thought. Rights simply answer the question: what is the right way for man to live as man. If man is to live by the use of his mind, it is right that he do so and be free to do so; it is right that he labor in pursuit of his own ends and to keep the product of that labor. That is ultimately what is meant by the right to life, liberty, the acquisition of property and the pursuit of happiness.

    You have a way with words making that sound really deep. Well done. But truthfully, it it no way shape or form negates the reality that a belief in natural rights is simply a belief held because the believer opts to believe it. And lets be really truthful Fletch, even Jefferson who wrote that line about rights in the Declaration did not believe what he wrote and he knew it was only the equal of a public relations press release.
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  10. #190
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    Re: Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This topic seems to have popped up in a few threads recently so I thought I'd put this together. Put simply do you believe in the concept of natural rights?
    I guess I don't. A man stranded in the middle of the ocean has no right he can invoke to keep the sea from swallowing him. The only right anyone has is the right to decide your aditude, but even that can be argued to be a mere universal condition rather than a right.

    I do believe in human rights and civil rights, though, as those exist within social construts and not nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That is to say rights that are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable".
    Every right you have can be alienated from you, exept the right to make to decide your aditude, to 'persue happiness'.

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