View Poll Results: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement/.

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  • For

    18 32.73%
  • Against

    34 61.82%
  • Other

    3 5.45%
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Thread: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

  1. #111
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I am not among those who belittle FDR's accomplishment, but WW2 (growth here, destruction there) was the more important factor.
    I heard you the first time, and already responded to that.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  2. #112
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Immigrants and porous borders have been sources of strength.
    Seems like you should be telling that to Fenton.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #113
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I heard you the first time, and already responded to that.
    Not in any meaningful way.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #114
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post

    "I dont think thats the root of the problem, I think its clear that the root of the problem is our trade policies especially when it comes to immigration. Its also to point out the part your quoted isnt even about immigration in the first place."
    That is correct - I drew a connection because the effect of lowering low-skill blue collar wages is a commonality between mass immigration and what you are accusing the TPP of.

    Its not the root cause of the problem.
    In fact it is a key driver. Supply of low-skill labor goes up, cost of low-skill labor goes down. Illegal workers also come with all sorts of built in cost advantages - not just pay, but (chiefly) tax and regulatory. Everyone else benefits (upper middle class and upper income earners, for example, get cheaper nannies and lawn service), but not the 25-50% of our inner city unemployed.

    If I may allow Gallup to put it:

    we know that wages for lower- and middle-income workers have been held down even as inflation has increased. There's been relatively little, if any, increase in the real earnings of lower- and middle-income workers in recent years. We know that part of the reason for this is that a number of companies have moved large parts of their operations to labor markets where they can get cheap labor to substitute for U.S. labor that's more expensive. And we also know that another part of the reason for the current wage stagnation is because we have allowed the influx of a huge number of illegal immigrants who violate U.S. immigration restrictions and therefore drive down lower- and middle-income wages. If illegal aliens are willing to work for wages that are much lower than those paid to legal workers, companies will either hire illegal immigrants and pay them much less, or companies will go out of business because they can't compete with those that hire cheap illegal immigrant labor. So illegal immigrants tend to determine the wage and benefit costs in those business sectors where they tend to be a large part of the labor market...


    As I pointed out - both of these policies have the effect you claim you oppose, yet you favor one and are against the other. Why?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  5. #115
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Not in any meaningful way.
    That's subjective.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #116
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Never been a better time to outsource.

  7. #117
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill​ View Post
    let me know when you have something other than a Just So argument.
    (And everything you said after that.)

    Let me know when you have something relevant to say.

    Like maybe when it passes and has been in effect for some time.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

  8. #118
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    Obviously whether one approves of a trade treaty or not has to depend on the final content. But on the whole I favour the promotion of greater free trade.
    The notion of "free" trade bothers no one. The opponents of various trade agreements have issues with trade deals real beneficiaries. In the case of TPP, its unlikely that corporate executives and industry lobbyists comprising the committees negotiating this deal have their sleeves rolled up, hard at work to ensure that it is a win win for the American worker.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #119
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Obviously corporate execs and industry lobbyists aren't working for the interests of American workers, no more than labor unions or labor advocacy groups would be working for corporate interests. This is why the imbalance of negotiators is problematic.

    Organized Labor and Advocacy Groups call on Congress to Stop Fast Track Legislation | United Steelworkers

    Something else about TPP that's of interest is that it started out as a trade deal between 4-5 PRC's (Singapore, Chile, New Zealand and Brunei) but in 2009 the US jumped in to take the lead, with the chief motivating factor being containment of China. Which of course further tidies up US/China relations. One more piece of USFP that's driving China and Russia closer together.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-13-15 at 08:44 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  10. #120
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    Re: For or against the Trans-Pacific Trade Agreement?

    Why all the fuss over these trade deals?


    Wouldn't it just be so much simpler to just say....hey, here's what I have for sale, what have you got? Why do we need a deal, a law, to say something as simple as, "OK, let's buy and sell stuff to these people."
    "Half full or half empty doesn't matter. What matters is, you've only got half a glass...so what are you going to do about it?" - Me
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