View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

    20 45.45%
  • No. Freebies are great

    24 54.55%
Page 8 of 19 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 182

Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #71
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    8,074

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Means tested benefits are anathema for a multitude of reasons!

    Dump them!

    My two-pronged approach is to first instate true single-payer healthcare as a standalone universal program for all (we're over 40% of the way there, now).

    Then, instate a modest universal 'basic income' program & do away with all other social-welfare programs.

    The income doesn't have to be enough to support an individual or family, but something very modest - there's nothing wrong with a half-dozen individuals pulling resources to share an apartment to survive; it beats the streets.

    I really wonder if the savings from shutting-down the social programs could finance a modest basic income program?
    EASILY. And the biggest reason is because so much of the social program money actually just goes to seniors via Social Security and Medicare. And seniors are already the most privileged group of us, in fact Pew Research has some information suggesting they are more privileged relative to their living younger counterparts than any prior generation. In other words, it's not that they're that dramatically better off than their parents and grandparents, rather their children and grandchildren are just that much worse off. Therefore we have to ask why half our federal budget goes exclusively to health care and income guarantees for our least needy age demographic. What sense does that possibly make?

    I am inclined to agree with you, we need single payer health care and we need to replace welfare with a GBI. Not because that is 100% aligned with my values but as a pragmatic, practical matter.

  2. #72
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,512

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerussll View Post
    Oh, don't get me started on no child left behind. That is an idiotic law with massive waste, and harmful consequences.
    I have a dissenting opinion. Given what we have seen over the course of the past 35 years, No Child Left Behind was a perfectly logical extension of dealing with a fairly real problem with standards and accountability practices in the American public education system. Furthermore, the pressure to collect data has helped tremendously. State Departments of Education and their local districts are largely reactionary bodies. For most of the time, the State Department of Education's interests go unnoticed by their local bodies. However, stick a federal mandate in there, and they are compelled beyond anything else to respond. Now, in some ways this has hurt the demographics they wanted to pump up. An increased number of kids had their parents contacted by administration who wanted them to stay home during test day (they were legally limited to how many they could skim off the normal reports, but the brash offensiveness of it was noted by parents). However, many other times it's interesting to note that those pressures have often also made schools actually....work to improve their education instead of letting them slide. Pressure from the feds kind of turned that around, because as I said before, the history has shown them to be largely reactionary bodies who need to be pushed toward "compliance" with new legislation to get anywhere. This past year, we have been doing significant work in addressing problems within each state by utilizing NCLB & IDEIA's mandated data collection and collection systems. In each of your states, over the next two to three years, you are seeing a pretty major overhaul of the special education system and an eventual reauthorization of the Act which was the predecessor to NCLB. I'm personally optimistic for what's coming down the pipe, of course I had some late nights trying to improve it so I am biased.

    Where it failed dramatically was in its design and implementation of accountability. AYP goals could never have been 100%, and punishing a school for essentially meeting dramatically high progress is asinine, just as it is often problematic to significantly punish a school for being unable to increase performance where it was unlikely that anyone short of Moses could achieve some results. States latching onto the law by mandating student graduation being tied to the performance on one test is absolutely unnecessary (it wasn't a required component to NCLB anyway). Tying a teacher or administrator's job security on the performance of those tests is likewise going to catch some issues regarding fidelity to reporting actual improvements as it is perhaps going to kill your educational staff. School should not have revolved around "teaching to the test," but rather using it as a means to track and incentivize school performance.

    There probably was too little carrot and too much of a stick (actually, it was a stick covered with rusty nails and a lethal injection).

    That being said--it was needed. RDA is the future, as it should be, but we need to make sure we are doing it right rather than incentivizing more harmful classroom environments.

    Equal effect funding? Sure thing. But NCLB and RtT did much to be commended, even if it really needs serious reworking.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 05-12-15 at 12:45 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #73
    Black Is Smart
    Van Basten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The New New Frontier
    Last Seen
    10-19-17 @ 10:03 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    4,661

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    God no.

    It should be reformed and enhanced accordingly though.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  4. #74
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,512

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    God no.

    It should be reformed and enhanced accordingly though.
    True enough. In fact, the mantra about wanting people to work kind of needs some fleshing out. People presume that incentives to work mean make it harder to stay on by way of kicking you off benefits for various things.

    While that may work for some, there's a lot built into our public policies which deincentivize working and independent living by penalize you too harshly for increasing your success. I'll use a personal example here, since that's easier to explain in detail. My sibling receives assistance due to his disability. That disability isn't going anywhere, no matter what. In fact, that disability was as a result of medical malpractice. He didn't ask for it at 4 years old, but there it was all the same. So he needs services and medical help, and a lot of it. It would be too much cashflow for even an ordinary fairly-well off blue collar worker to deal with a significant hourly wage and work hours. So he gets government aid to essentially stay even in terms of feeling normal for the day. He loves work, he excels at it and puts most of his coworkers to shame with his near-perfect record. But with federal services, he cannot work more than a certain number of hours or make just X much money, or else those services start fading pretty damn quickly. He also has to spend all that he earns in order to stay in the government's good graces. Many conservatives see the word "spend" and think "oh goody, he's getting a bunch of toys and nice things with tax payer support." Well, not really. He absolutely hates it. He's required to spend down so he can continue to live his incredibly modest life---but no more. You should have seen him when he was required to spend down. We went to the furniture store and he was grumbling the whole damn time. Sure, he could have used a better mattress...but why are they "making me waste all of this money when I want to save for a home?" It was degrading.

    There is absolutely no incentive for him to climb the ladder, because he can't make too much of lose services that mere mortals can hardly pay for (my parents went near-broke doing so on their salaries when he was a kid). He's renting an apartment that is thankfully cheap, but he's incredibly vulnerable. Rent costs are on the average a few times higher than he's paying, due to the boom. Any higher than that and he's looking to living with mom and dad for the foreseeable future. So what's a sob to do? Buy property. Except he cannot save up for his own home. Government says so. He's required to not save a dime, he's required to work less, and he's required, and if he wanted to get married, government dramatically punishes him for that too (want to know why marriage rates for people with disabilities is so low? Look to that). Even the recently-passed ABLE Act only allows significant savings on "disability-related expenditures only." The regs are still being created, but that's not necessarily a promising sign for anyone with a disability wanting to accomplish the American dream.

    In the pursuit of "pulling yourself by your bootstraps" government social safety nets, government often times does the opposite to the human spirit. Do you think this supposedly conservative idea fostered the ideals of conservatism in him? Nah. He's wanting to pursue conservative ideals in spite of conservatives.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 05-12-15 at 01:04 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #75
    Sage
    Chomsky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Third Coast
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:53 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,364

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I am inclined to agree with you, we need single payer health care and we need to replace welfare with a GBI. Not because that is 100% aligned with my values but as a pragmatic, practical matter.
    Thank you!

    As for seniors, a single-payer health system would take care of their medical (as of now they already have single-payer, anyway - AKA Soc Sec), but the modest GBI I envision would likely be below the current individual max SS payment - that might be problematic, and I can't see having a GBI so high that some might see it as an opportunity to go through life on permanent vacation from day one.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

  6. #76
    Educator
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,198

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    I didn't answer the poll because I feel it was too black and white.
    We do have to move away from the unsustainable concept of a "welfare-state", where the state takes on an ever-increasing role in supporting people, creating entitlements and making people dependent on the state.

  7. #77
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    28,649

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I don't think it matters where you're from...I don't think anybody appreciates slackers who sit around eating Cheetos while you're out working your butt off.
    Yes I agree, but the question is how many are actual slackers...

    Just going back to the numbers for a second: how many people actually need government handouts because they're poor? I'm not taking about disabled or sick or old people (they are covered under a different program), just how many need goodies for being poor? One in ten at most?
    Yes but in the US, that includes food stamps.. which large numbers of middle class, as well as lower class get because there has been no wage growth in the US.

    If we spend a trillion dollars a year and one in ten really needs it, that's 100,000 dollars allocated per needy person. That's a lot of money. Since the poor are hardly living the high life, that siggests A.) more people are taking handouts than likely need it, b.). Money is disappearing and c.). Fraud and system abuse are a problem here.
    And how many are in A vs B and C... As I said, there has been next to no wage growth in the US for 30+ years, where as prices have gone up.

    So I say get rid of it and start fresh. Let the govt open up soup kitchens and housing projects. Let them open up goodwill shops to provide these poor with used clothing. But don't give them a dime of spending money.
    So in other words back to before the 1920s?
    PeteEU

  8. #78
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,946

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Negative income tax...sounds like communism to me
    It is a cheaper way of constructing a net to catch people before they drop out of society. It needs no bureaucracy and is too small to let people stay on dole.

  9. #79
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,946

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I proposed just such a platform over in the Loft.
    You are a good man to have along.

  10. #80
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Goldsboro,PA
    Last Seen
    10-18-17 @ 12:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    5,578
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Should we end welfare?

    no vote
    A loaded poll , which MUST BE prohibited !
    And, of course, welfare must not be repealed !
    But, it probably can be improved. Liberals , get with it, or lose more political power !

Page 8 of 19 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •