View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

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  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

    20 45.45%
  • No. Freebies are great

    24 54.55%
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Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    There are ways to structure social safety nets that mitigate or minimize the damage that you are describing. Get rid of welfare? No, but reform it, sharply, to at least stop punishing good decisions and rewarding bad ones.
    I think we need to move towards a negative income tax, which would still need a good design, but would do a good deed in reducing bureaucracy.

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    How about we just fix the system that creates a need for so many on welfare? Maybe equalize our education system and fund all of our schools well so kids have a better opportunity to break the cycle and get out of these sh*tty neighborhoods.

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    Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerussll View Post
    How about we just fix the system that creates a need for so many on welfare? Maybe equalize our education system and fund all of our schools well so kids have a better opportunity to break the cycle and get out of these sh*tty neighborhoods.
    Because there is no "just" behind any of it. Poverty is a multi-systemic experience.

    Welfare reform is just one small component to a greater societal issue, and we have difficulty with doing that correctly.

    Each component is being worked or or advocated for to better work the poor, and there is enormous political tugging toward what that better is. This means even *if* we have a clue as to what works (and often we don't have that certainty among researchers, let alone lawmakers and the public at large), there is usually no agreement on action when it gets outside the all-too-certain researchers. Then after that implementation runs into an unknown quantity of issues.
    "We all of us know down here that politics is a tough game. And I don't think there's any point in being Irish if you don't know that the world is going to break your heart eventually."-Daniel Patrick Moynihan, December 5, 1963

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerussll View Post
    How about we just fix the system that creates a need for so many on welfare? Maybe equalize our education system and fund all of our schools well so kids have a better opportunity to break the cycle and get out of these sh*tty neighborhoods.
    We already fund our schools. And our inner cities. The problem is too many inner city kids are not well behaved, don't have pride or work ethic, and would rather make babies or "chill" and do drugs than graduate and make something of themselves.

    That's not my problem or yours.

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Why not have govt funded soup kitchens and homeless shelters and goodwill giveaways in place of just sending out welfare checks?
    Because that would be far less efficient. It would be a huge waste of money compared to what we do now.
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Because that would be far less efficient. It would be a huge waste of money compared to what we do now.
    We spend nearly a trillion dollars each year on means tested handouts. A trillion bucks will buy a lot of soup...

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I think we need to move towards a negative income tax, which would still need a good design, but would do a good deed in reducing bureaucracy.
    Negative income tax...sounds like communism to me

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I would love to Pete, but in the U.S. today, there are more than 80 federal means-tested welfare programs that provide cash, food, housing, medical care, and social services to low-income residents. Too many to go through each one.
    Yes I see, so anything that effects low-income people right? How about the welfare for farmers, big business and the wealthy? This is expensive as hell as well. Or how about that welfare machine called the US military? You can define welfare as anything that government pays for, directly or indirectly.. and that is a lot.

    An October 2012 report by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service indicates that as of 2011, federal spending on these programs had reached $746 billion per year—more than expenditures for Medicare ($480 billion), Social Security ($725 billion), or the military ($540 billion). In addition, state contributions into federal welfare programs amounted to $201 billion annually, while independent state programs contributed another $9 billion. All told, means-tested welfare spending from federal and state sources (combined) was $956 billion.
    Yes but how about this.. how about making it so that the welfare programs are not needed? That is the root of the problem, like it or not. Low wage growth, a medical system based on having a job, a debt based economy and massive income inequality.. that is why you need the welfare programs in the first place. So telling people.. you are slackers, and are your own because we wont pay for you.. wont work. It never has and never will. All it will do, is increase criminality and poverty.

    Divide that by the entire population of the U.S., and you get nearly 10,000 dollars per person
    And how much did these same people spend on bailing out the banking industry 8 years ago?

    Now dont get mad, because I am trying to make a point here.

    Welfare should be a stop gap and temporary.. I think most people would agree to that. Problem is that to keep it temporary, then the ability to have jobs that actually pay enough to live off must be prioritized and it is here the US and some western European countries have failed big time the last many decades. We have used failed economic theories that have prioritized the big companies and wealthy over the small/medium companies and middle class. The so called trickle down effect is and always has been bogus and THAT is one of the reasons for more and more being used on welfare. When wages dont keep up with inflation, then at some point people have to go to welfare systems to make up the difference... so while Paris Hilton earns millions a year and pays next to nothing in taxes, the pay checks of the average Joe stay the same at best, but they can buy less and less for it.

    And before you go on about me being anti-American and a damn foreigner, then I have to tell you that all nations suffer from these problems to some degree or another. In my own country we are having a debate right now about the 800k people living off the state. Now over half the population get some sort of state aid (pensions and such), but the 800k number is the one people are talking about. Now in this case there is a lot of right wing bull**** involved.. from my own party (yes I am ashamed that they use such tactics), because in the 800k are 40k or so women on maternity leave (yes we have paid maternity leave) and 250k on early retirement. But the point is, that even in "socialist" welfare Denmark we are talking about the slackers in society and what to do about it and how to bring down welfare costs.
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    We have a cultural problem in America, particularly inner city, with people living on public money and not being productive members of society.

    Part of the problem is that underclass inner city women begin having babies at age 15. They continue to have babies, with different men, until they have had five or six. These women do not go to school. They do not work. They are not ashamed to live on public money. They plan their entire lives around the expectation that they will always get free money and never have to work.

    The inner city men who are part of the problem also do not work. They get social security disability payments for a mental defect or for a vague and invisible physical ailment. They do not pay for anything: not for housing (Grandma lives on welfare and he lives with her), not for food (Grandma and the baby-momma share with him), and not for child support.

    I once asked a 19 year old with no job and no schooling from the inner city, "What do you do all day?”

    “You know, just chill.” These men live in a culture with no expectations, no demands, and no shame.

    Should we change that? Should we get rid of the handouts and end welfare?

    Nothing wrong with the old soup kitchen. I don't believe in letting people starve, but let's get rid of food stamps, welfare payments, and other bs government giveaways.

    Let's make these people learn personal responsibility
    Define "welfare". Does it include unemployment? What about veterans on welfare? Are they leeches/parasites/unmotivated slacker or whatever the du jour accusation is these days? Most people who attack "welfare" never seem to go after anything specific, just vague concept and notions. Nevermind that "welfare" doesn't exist in a strict sense which probably explains why nobody ever gets overly specific about problems with it.
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes I see, so anything that effects low-income people right? How about the welfare for farmers, big business and the wealthy? This is expensive as hell as well. Or how about that welfare machine called the US military? You can define welfare as anything that government pays for, directly or indirectly.. and that is a lot.



    Yes but how about this.. how about making it so that the welfare programs are not needed? That is the root of the problem, like it or not. Low wage growth, a medical system based on having a job, a debt based economy and massive income inequality.. that is why you need the welfare programs in the first place. So telling people.. you are slackers, and are your own because we wont pay for you.. wont work. It never has and never will. All it will do, is increase criminality and poverty.



    And how much did these same people spend on bailing out the banking industry 8 years ago?

    Now dont get mad, because I am trying to make a point here.

    Welfare should be a stop gap and temporary.. I think most people would agree to that. Problem is that to keep it temporary, then the ability to have jobs that actually pay enough to live off must be prioritized and it is here the US and some western European countries have failed big time the last many decades. We have used failed economic theories that have prioritized the big companies and wealthy over the small/medium companies and middle class. The so called trickle down effect is and always has been bogus and THAT is one of the reasons for more and more being used on welfare. When wages dont keep up with inflation, then at some point people have to go to welfare systems to make up the difference... so while Paris Hilton earns millions a year and pays next to nothing in taxes, the pay checks of the average Joe stay the same at best, but they can buy less and less for it.

    And before you go on about me being anti-American and a damn foreigner, then I have to tell you that all nations suffer from these problems to some degree or another. In my own country we are having a debate right now about the 800k people living off the state. Now over half the population get some sort of state aid (pensions and such), but the 800k number is the one people are talking about. Now in this case there is a lot of right wing bull**** involved.. from my own party (yes I am ashamed that they use such tactics), because in the 800k are 40k or so women on maternity leave (yes we have paid maternity leave) and 250k on early retirement. But the point is, that even in "socialist" welfare Denmark we are talking about the slackers in society and what to do about it and how to bring down welfare costs.
    I don't think it matters where you're from...I don't think anybody appreciates slackers who sit around eating Cheetos while you're out working your butt off.

    Just going back to the numbers for a second: how many people actually need government handouts because they're poor? I'm not taking about disabled or sick or old people (they are covered under a different program), just how many need goodies for being poor? One in ten at most?

    If we spend a trillion dollars a year and one in ten really needs it, that's 100,000 dollars allocated per needy person. That's a lot of money. Since the poor are hardly living the high life, that siggests A.) more people are taking handouts than likely need it, b.). Money is disappearing and c.). Fraud and system abuse are a problem here.

    So I say get rid of it and start fresh. Let the govt open up soup kitchens and housing projects. Let them open up goodwill shops to provide these poor with used clothing. But don't give them a dime of spending money.

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