View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

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  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

    20 45.45%
  • No. Freebies are great

    24 54.55%
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Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #151
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Lie, go to jail, loose licence. Hows that for a fix?
    That's already the penalty.... How's that?

  2. #152
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I reject the "ONLY NECESSITIES" part of the proposal.

    First, it's just cruel to dictate that THOSE PEOPLE don't deserve a nice thing now and again. They can buy those things "with their own cash?" If they had an awful lot of cash to spare, they wouldn't need help in the first place. It also doesn't appropriately account for the fact that sometimes those niceties are cheaper than you think. Manager's specials on steaks sometimes get you meat that's cheaper than frozen chicken strips or ground beef. SNAP already has a lot of restrictions on it. We don't need to devolve it to "you get two bowls of gruel a day and be happy!"
    I believe the people who say that don't really believe it. They're just throwing a bone out there to minimize criticism of their stern beliefs. When pressed they feel that all these people's money is from a handout, hence it's their money to dictate.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I reject the "ONLY NECESSITIES" part of the proposal.

    First, it's just cruel to dictate that THOSE PEOPLE don't deserve a nice thing now and again. They can buy those things "with their own cash?" If they had an awful lot of cash to spare, they wouldn't need help in the first place. It also doesn't appropriately account for the fact that sometimes those niceties are cheaper than you think. Manager's specials on steaks sometimes get you meat that's cheaper than frozen chicken strips or ground beef. SNAP already has a lot of restrictions on it. We don't need to devolve it to "you get two bowls of gruel a day and be happy!"
    I specifically didnt limit amount of food but no way should I be buying 'nice things' for others. If you want them, earn them. For kid's special occasions, there are lots of community and church-funded things that offer presents, parties, etc. It takes my 'nice things' from me to pay for theirs. No. It's an incentive...if you want potato chips and cant afford them, then that's an incentive to do something about it.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #154
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I believe the people who say that don't really believe it. They're just throwing a bone out there to minimize criticism of their stern beliefs. When pressed they feel that all these people's money is from a handout, hence it's their money to dictate.
    If it's not a necessity and they cant afford it...what's the big deal? There are loads of things I want and cant 'buy it with my own cash.' Paying for it for someone else means it's even less likely that I can and I earned my $.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #155
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    We already take away "welfare" after a certain period of time, GED or not.
    There is always some type of public assistance for those that apply, esp. those with kids.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #156
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yes, but quite honestly does our perceived social responsibility to provide food & shelter for our fellow Americans specify that one gets their own place? I don't believe it does (IMHO).
    Many people do not share a 'perceived social responsibility to provide food and shelter for our fellow Americans.'

    But as I wrote, the govt isnt in the position to demand people share housing, they may provide 'shelters' but those arent permanent residences and the govt's reach doesnt extend to creating communes. People may choose to do so, and some do. More likely, the $$ is spent with other family members to share a dwelling.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #157
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    If it's not a necessity and they cant afford it...what's the big deal? There are loads of things I want and cant 'buy it with my own cash.' Paying for it for someone else means it's even less likely that I can and I earned my $.
    If you have $X in cash in your pocket it's your's to decide what you spend it on. Provided said cash was gained legally it's nobody else's business.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    If you have $X in cash in your pocket it's your's to decide what you spend it on. Provided said cash was gained legally it's nobody else's business.
    Well I was talking more about food stamps assistance, EBT cards. Those are already regulated somewhat anyway. The state could also make sure the funds for their rent went directly to their mortgage or landlord, direct deposit. Same for daycare. Then it's up to them to make their car payments, kids clothes, potato chips, etc.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #159
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Actually, I did reference the wiki article last night (scanning & speed-reading).

    Here's what I found:

    +++

    "In a negative income tax system, people earning a certain income level would owe no taxes; those earning more than that would pay a proportion of their income above that level; and those below that level would receive a payment of a proportion of their shortfall, which is the amount their income falls below that level."

    +++

    So a specific income level is picked, and unless that income level is exceeded the person has no incentive to work.

    If we pick $7K/yr as the guaranteed level, there's absolutely no reason for my H.S. Senior (now turned 18) to work his usual $3,500/yr fast-food job (true example) - he can stay home & study harder or goof off and still receive the same $7K.

    Individuals will forgo any traceable income or job, unless it pays reasonably well in excess of $7K. See the problem here? It *is* income tested in actuality. And has the same disincentives as other means-tested systems.

    Unless, I'm misunderstanding something? (I may have).
    Where negative taxes were trytried there is in fact a certain fall off of work. But as the $ 3.500 minus a small tax in your example would increase the student's income to over $ 10.000 he would have the incentive that any worker has to put in extra effort for more pay.

  10. #160
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Part of the problem is that underclass inner city women begin having babies at age 15. They continue to have babies, with different men, until they have had five or six. These women do not go to school. They do not work. They are not ashamed to live on public money. They plan their entire lives around the expectation that they will always get free money and never have to work
    I am wondering how much of this you just pulled out of thin air. The vast majority of people on welfare are not women who had a baby at 15 and then continue to have babies with different men until they've had 5 or 6. I am willing to wager that makes us less than 1% of the welfare population.

    As for whether or not they work, you are just making assumptions based on your own ignorance.
    In fact, among poor people who are neither kids, elderly, nor disabled, half (49%) worked in 2012, when the unemployment rate was 8.1%. If you take out those who didn’t work because they were going to school, 57% worked (i.e., among poor, non-disabled adults, 18-64, not in school, 57% worked).

    Digging a bit deeper in these numbers, of the 46 million poor people in 2012, about 20 million (43%) were kids (35%) or elderlies (8%). The other 26 million poor were 18-64. Of those, about 11 million worked and 16 million did not work (rounding screws up the totals a bit).

    However, of those non-working 16 million adults, 5 million did not work due to illness or disability. So, of the about 21 million, non-disabled poor adults, half worked (and another 3 million did not work because they were in school).
    the numbers above, which are the only numbers i was able to pull up pretty quickly show that the majority of people are trying, or cannot try. Of course there are some who abuse the system, but it is not as common as people who don't bother looking into things believe.

    Let's make these people learn personal responsibility
    You don't know these people. You don't know what they are going through, what they trying to do, or anything else. You are just making ignorant assumptions. Most people are trying to do better. Go to any inner city, spend some time there. You will see countless people going to work, albeit part time, and for ****ty wages. Not enough to get them off of welfare. Even more people trying to find work who can't, as least partly, due to our poor education systems.

    And what exactly do you think is going to happen if we did get rid of welfare? If we did decide people who are barely scraping by have too much and we need to take more from them because ignorant people looking down from their pedestals decided they have too much? Chances are they aren't going to just crawl into a corner and die quietly as you are probably hoping for.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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