View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

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  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

    20 45.45%
  • No. Freebies are great

    24 54.55%
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Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #141
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yes, that is the system we have now, and it's not working - this way we carry the same social obligation, but incentify moving off welfare, since there's no longer an incentive to not work due to income ceilings.

    This isn't just welfare involved in this, I'm speaking of all social systems, including Social Security - workers can do far better investing their SS taxes in a 401K versus paying 8 or 16% to the feds & then waiting around for retiree SS benefits. And if they can't, won't, or screw-up? They learn to survive on the low base-income they (& we) all get.

    The current system of welfare just isn't working, and is causing huge rifts in our society & country - basic income is an equitable solution for everyone that keeps income testing and social segregation out of the equation.
    I know, I used "welfare" in a more general sense, my error...it was confusing. All govt entitlements is more what I meant. And SS isnt IMO, since people pay into that specifically (not that they get what they paid for out of it).

    However what you described sounds much more expensive for the reasons I wrote.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I dont disagree with this. As a matter of fact, it is similar to what I would recommend, but no one on either side ever likes it:

    --Require higher education/degrees for social workers...those that assess eligibility (or whoever it is). Pay them what their job is worth...a lot.
    --Require very frequent and random home visits (now by motivated and qualified professionals).
    --Create individual budgets for families and during home visits, review these and nail down where all the $$ goes. This is mostly to be helpful in teaching people to manage $ but also to keep track of abuses.
    --This will also make sure that 'the children!!!!' are being properly fed and housed instead of having them used as emotional leverage. It's not perfect but will help.
    --Restrict food stamps to ONLY necessities...but as much as they need. No candy, snacks, smokes, etc. THey can pay for those things with their own cash. No one is preventing them from 'buying' them. (Some ridiculous stuff is still allowed, I see it at the market)
    --Require job training and job searches as criteria for checks and make sure this is covered under the more frequent oversite.
    --Require they must take a job they are qualified for and if they want to do something different, then they have to sign off on the welfare.
    --Provide free daycare. This can be provided by others that have applied for welfare.

    And yes it would cost a fortune but the intent would be to stop the institutionalized abuse and then be able to regulated in the future more cheaply and practically, since there would be fewer dependents and less need. Break the cycle.
    How about requiring recipients to get either a GED or HS diploma after x-amount of time? If they don't already have one, of course.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    How about requiring recipients to get either a GED or HS diploma after x-amount of time? If they don't already have one, of course.
    All such incentives and assistance to do so help, great to add to the list...but no one will take 'welfare' away from them...we've seen that. So it has to be something 'enforceable' with consequences.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #144
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    I'd like to also add: Guaranteed Income removes the incentive for fathers to be out of the house as with the current welfare system. In fact, since all adults receive a base income, even if he's out of work there's every incentive to have him there. And even more incentive if he has a job!

    And, as a father who was raised by a great father & an amazing grandfather - I can assure you this is a very good thing!

    (it also does away with the SS "more money divorced than married" quandary for retirees)
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    I'd like to also add: Guaranteed Income removes the incentive for fathers to be out of the house as with the current welfare system. In fact, since all adults receive a base income, even if he's out of work there's every incentive to have him there. And even more incentive if he has a job!

    And, as a father who was raised by a great father & an amazing grandfather - I can assure you this is a very good thing!

    (it also does away with the SS "more money divorced than married" quandary for retirees)
    That's a good incentive except that in practice, I dont think it matters. Without enough oversight, people just live together anyway. I dont think (male or female) parental involvement is quite that simple.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #146
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Living with roomates is a nice personal solution but the govt doesnt legally have the ability to implement such solutions against the will of others.
    Yes, but quite honestly does our perceived social responsibility to provide food & shelter for our fellow Americans specify that one gets their own place? I don't believe it does (IMHO).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I know, I used "welfare" in a more general sense, my error...it was confusing. All govt entitlements is more what I meant. And SS isnt IMO, since people pay into that specifically (not that they get what they paid for out of it).

    However what you described sounds much more expensive for the reasons I wrote.
    Yeah, I really would like to get some numbers on all of this somehow.

    But it strikes me as resolving a lot of the current system's issues.

    We could remove the stigma of being "poor & on welfare" too, which is a good thing.

    Edit: Sorry about getting the posts out-of-sync, somehow.
    Last edited by Chomsky; 05-12-15 at 07:17 PM.
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    So in another words....private doctors are lying, they've falsified tests, diagnosis, etc....but government hired doctors won't? Their test results will be more accurate, yadda, yadda, yadda?
    Lie, go to jail, loose licence. Hows that for a fix?

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    All such incentives and assistance to do so help, great to add to the list...but no one will take 'welfare' away from them...we've seen that. So it has to be something 'enforceable' with consequences.
    We already take away "welfare" after a certain period of time, GED or not.
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    Well, certainly the customer is not an N-word.
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I dont disagree with this. As a matter of fact, it is similar to what I would recommend, but no one on either side ever likes it:

    --Require higher education/degrees for social workers...those that assess eligibility (or whoever it is). Pay them what their job is worth...a lot.
    --Require very frequent and random home visits (now by motivated and qualified professionals).
    --Create individual budgets for families and during home visits, review these and nail down where all the $$ goes. This is mostly to be helpful in teaching people to manage $ but also to keep track of abuses.
    --This will also make sure that 'the children!!!!' are being properly fed and housed instead of having them used as emotional leverage. It's not perfect but will help.
    --Restrict food stamps to ONLY necessities...but as much as they need. No candy, snacks, smokes, etc. THey can pay for those things with their own cash. No one is preventing them from 'buying' them. (Some ridiculous stuff is still allowed, I see it at the market)
    --Require job training and job searches as criteria for checks and make sure this is covered under the more frequent oversite.
    --Require they must take a job they are qualified for and if they want to do something different, then they have to sign off on the welfare.
    --Provide free daycare. This can be provided by others that have applied for welfare.

    And yes it would cost a fortune but the intent would be to stop the institutionalized abuse and then be able to regulated in the future more cheaply and practically, since there would be fewer dependents and less need. Break the cycle.
    I reject the "ONLY NECESSITIES" part of the proposal.

    First, it's just cruel to dictate that THOSE PEOPLE don't deserve a nice thing now and again. They can buy those things "with their own cash?" If they had an awful lot of cash to spare, they wouldn't need help in the first place. It also doesn't appropriately account for the fact that sometimes those niceties are cheaper than you think. Manager's specials on steaks sometimes get you meat that's cheaper than frozen chicken strips or ground beef. SNAP already has a lot of restrictions on it. We don't need to devolve it to "you get two bowls of gruel a day and be happy!"
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Well, certainly the customer is not an N-word.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You know her?

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcart76 View Post
    Interesting that you only single out the inner city welfare recipients.
    But not accidental. There has been a campaign to target black welfare recipients.

    "...Bob Herbert, a New York Times opinion columnist, reported a 1981 interview with Lee Atwater,[45] published in Southern Politics in the 1990s by Alexander P. Lamis, in which Atwater discussed the Southern strategy:

    Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

    Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."...Southern strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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