View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

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  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

    20 45.45%
  • No. Freebies are great

    24 54.55%
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Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #131
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No threshhold. But just google 'negative tax wiki'. The article is quite good.
    Actually, I did reference the wiki article last night (scanning & speed-reading).

    Here's what I found:

    +++

    "In a negative income tax system, people earning a certain income level would owe no taxes; those earning more than that would pay a proportion of their income above that level; and those below that level would receive a payment of a proportion of their shortfall, which is the amount their income falls below that level."

    +++

    So a specific income level is picked, and unless that income level is exceeded the person has no incentive to work.

    If we pick $7K/yr as the guaranteed level, there's absolutely no reason for my H.S. Senior (now turned 18) to work his usual $3,500/yr fast-food job (true example) - he can stay home & study harder or goof off and still receive the same $7K.

    Individuals will forgo any traceable income or job, unless it pays reasonably well in excess of $7K. See the problem here? It *is* income tested in actuality. And has the same disincentives as other means-tested systems.

    Unless, I'm misunderstanding something? (I may have).
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  2. #132
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They can do that now. They dont...or some do. But no one 'forces' them to do so, they just keep applying for and receiving welfare.

    And if it's too low to live on...then they still need 'welfare' and you still arent forcing them to get jobs any more so than before when you were handing them $$ for nothing.

    I'm not knocking your motives but it sounds no different than welfare.
    Thank you for reviewing & critiquing my proposal!

    But, this scheme has one huge difference than welfare - it is NOT means-tested.

    There is no disincentive to add income, since the 'benefit' cannot be lost - we all receive it equally (obviously, for those with full livable incomes it would likely be used to offset income tax burdens).

    Finding part-time work adds to the base income & improves one's lot in life w/o any compromises - there's no need to work under-the-table or restrict one's hours. There's every incentive to add income through legitimate means, with no downsides; it's a very positive enforcing scheme. More income simply means a better life, not trading a benefit for work.

    The main difficulty I see, is deciding upon an income level satisfactorily to keep a person from true destitution, but low enough to provide very strong incentive to improve their lot. But in this case, at least every penny brought-in will produce it's full amount of relief & will be 100% incentifying.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Thank you for reviewing & critiquing my proposal!

    But, this scheme has one huge difference than welfare - it is NOT means-tested.

    There is no disincentive to add income, since the 'benefit' cannot be lost - we all receive it equally (obviously, for those with full livable incomes it would likely be used to offset income tax burdens).

    Finding part-time work adds to the base income & improves one's lot in life w/o any compromises - there's no need to work under-the-table or restrict one's hours. There's every incentive to add income through legitimate means, with no downsides; it's a very positive enforcing scheme. More income simply means a better life, not trading a benefit for work.

    The main difficulty I see, is deciding upon an income level satisfactorily to keep a person from true destitution, but low enough to provide very strong incentive to improve their lot. But in this case, at least every penny brought-in will produce it's full amount of relief & will be 100% incentifying.
    Ah, thanks for that clarification.

    Where would all that $$ come from that was given to people 'equally?'
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #134
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Ah, thanks for that clarification.

    Where would all that $$ come from that was given to people 'equally?'
    Well, I'm throwing alternative ideas out here - I'm not an accountant or economist - but I'll try.

    Firstly, I'd like to see what the aggregate current costs of our social programs entail, and see what the figure would be if it was amortized over all the majority aged adults, and start from there.

    Who knows? The numbers may not add up. But they may.

    It would be interesting to see what the numbers are.

    I'm sure I'd like to see lower income levels than that currently occurred as a total program cost, when broken-down as cost-per-recipient-individual (we're simply providing a single base income here, not comprehensive benefits, multi-faceted programs or complex program management).

    As stated earlier, I see no reason to provide an amount of welfare for someone to live a fully independent comfortable life in their own place. When I was 19 I moved back to my folk's basement for two years to get my associate's degree; it wasn't the end of the world. I would like to just provide enough income so a person can figure out how to survive, if need be. If we can do it for around the same costs as we have now, why not?
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  5. #135
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post

    As stated earlier, I see no reason to provide an amount of welfare for someone to live a fully independent comfortable life in their own place. When I was 19 I moved back to my folk's basement for two years to get my associate's degree; it wasn't the end of the world. I would like to just provide enough income so a person can figure out how to survive, if need be. If we can do it for around the same costs as we have now, why not?
    If this was an actual solution...why are we paying out welfare? Because in America we only have so much ability to run people's lives and 'force' them to do anything without due process of the law. Poverty is not a crime.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #136
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Well, I'm throwing alternative ideas out here - I'm not an accountant or economist - but I'll try.

    Firstly, I'd like to see what the aggregate current costs of our social programs entail, and see what the figure would be if it was amortized over all the majority aged adults, and start from there.

    Who knows? The numbers may not add up. But they may.

    It would be interesting to see what the numbers are.
    They would come from the taxpayers. So you would take ONLY from the people that can pay and give it back to them AND the poor. Yet the 'flat fee' you give back would not be equal to their taxation...so some taxpayers would lose on the deal. Or be paying for themselves to get the income credit. And the poor would still be contributing nothing and getting $$$. (We call that welfare.)
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #137
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    If this was an actual solution...why are we paying out welfare? Because in America we only have so much ability to run people's lives and 'force' them to do anything without due process of the law. Poverty is not a crime.
    Sorry, you lost me here ...
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  8. #138
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    sure let them die in the streets and rob you blind....lol but believe it or not welfare is safer way to handle "certain types of people including all races" in the long run...but how about corporate welfare...also there are doctors out there with 100,000 dollar student debt owed but live in 2 million dollar homes and drive expensive cars ..and not even thinking of paying it back to the tax payers..at least they can!!!
    I find the lack of logic in humans most disturbing...

  9. #139
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They would come from the taxpayers. So you would take ONLY from the people that can pay and give it back to them AND the poor. Yet the 'flat fee' you give back would not be equal to their taxation...so some taxpayers would lose on the deal. Or be paying for themselves to get the income credit. And the poor would still be contributing nothing and getting $$$. (We call that welfare.)
    Yes, that is the system we have now, and it's not working - this way we carry the same social obligation, but incentify moving off welfare, since there's no longer an incentive to not work due to income ceilings.

    This isn't just welfare involved in this, I'm speaking of all social systems, including Social Security - workers can do far better investing their SS taxes in a 401K versus paying 8 or 16% to the feds & then waiting around for retiree SS benefits. And if they can't, won't, or screw-up? They learn to survive on the low base-income they (& we) all get.

    The current system of welfare just isn't working, and is causing huge rifts in our society & country - basic income is an equitable solution for everyone that keeps income testing and social segregation out of the equation.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

  10. #140
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Sorry, you lost me here ...
    Living with roomates is a nice personal solution but the govt doesnt legally have the ability to implement such solutions against the will of others.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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