View Poll Results: Should we get rid of welfare?

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  • Yes. Nothing wrong with soup kitchens

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  • No. Freebies are great

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Thread: Should we end welfare?

  1. #121
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Lots of doctors sign off on all kinds of crap that people take to the SSI office.
    So then how does your 'solution' fix that if that's what you suggested? Do they need multiple opinions/doctor sign off then?

    That sounds even more expensive. And I'm not aware that the majority of welfare recipients use medical excuses....is that true? Is it a highly significant number, even if not a majority? What can you offer as substantiation?
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Jerkoffness is protected by The Constitution. That's what makes America great.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    So then how does your 'solution' fix that if that's what you suggested? Do they need multiple opinions/doctor sign off then?

    That sounds even more expensive. And I'm not aware that the majority of welfare recipients use medical excuses....is that true? Is it a highly significant number, even if not a majority? What can you offer as substantiation?
    To fix things, sometimes you have spend a great deal of cash to eventually get a savings. That's just how many things are.
    But doing nothing is just making us broke.

  3. #123
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No. No means testing.
    Well, your tax system is not 'true' means testing, but it is 'income' testing, and will still have many of the same detrimental effects.

    Tying benefits to income has all kinds of negative effects - scamming, disincentive, underground economies, etc. If a benefit is universal (like a single-payer healthcare system or guaranteed basic income), everyone has incentive to work harder to add above & beyond their base benefit, since work & higher income will not decrease the benefit.

    With the systems I'm describing, there's no incentive to lay-back or work for cash.

    The current social systems are rife with individuals who will stop their traceable income at specific amounts due to income testing - those are negative-enforcement systems, and I believe they should be avoided. Obamacare included.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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  4. #124
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    To fix things, sometimes you have spend a great deal of cash to eventually get a savings. That's just how many things are.
    But doing nothing is just making us broke.
    I dont disagree with this. As a matter of fact, it is similar to what I would recommend, but no one on either side ever likes it:

    --Require higher education/degrees for social workers...those that assess eligibility (or whoever it is). Pay them what their job is worth...a lot.
    --Require very frequent and random home visits (now by motivated and qualified professionals).
    --Create individual budgets for families and during home visits, review these and nail down where all the $$ goes. This is mostly to be helpful in teaching people to manage $ but also to keep track of abuses.
    --This will also make sure that 'the children!!!!' are being properly fed and housed instead of having them used as emotional leverage. It's not perfect but will help.
    --Restrict food stamps to ONLY necessities...but as much as they need. No candy, snacks, smokes, etc. THey can pay for those things with their own cash. No one is preventing them from 'buying' them. (Some ridiculous stuff is still allowed, I see it at the market)
    --Require job training and job searches as criteria for checks and make sure this is covered under the more frequent oversite.
    --Require they must take a job they are qualified for and if they want to do something different, then they have to sign off on the welfare.
    --Provide free daycare. This can be provided by others that have applied for welfare.

    And yes it would cost a fortune but the intent would be to stop the institutionalized abuse and then be able to regulated in the future more cheaply and practically, since there would be fewer dependents and less need. Break the cycle.
    Last edited by Lursa; 05-12-15 at 04:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Jerkoffness is protected by The Constitution. That's what makes America great.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #125
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Well, your tax system is not 'true' means testing, but it is 'income' testing, and will still have many of the same detrimental effects.

    Tying benefits to income has all kinds of negative effects - scamming, disincentive, underground economies, etc. If a benefit is universal (like a single-payer healthcare system or guaranteed basic income), everyone has incentive to work harder to add above & beyond their base benefit, since work & higher income will not decrease the benefit.

    With the systems I'm describing, there's no incentive to lay-back or work for cash.

    The current social systems are rife with individuals who will stop their traceable income at specific amounts due to income testing - those are negative-enforcement systems, and I believe they should be avoided. Obamacare included.
    No. that is the nice thing about negative tax. Everyone gets the same and there is no need to test.

  6. #126
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Lots of doctors sign off on all kinds of crap that people take to the SSI office.
    So in another words....private doctors are lying, they've falsified tests, diagnosis, etc....but government hired doctors won't? Their test results will be more accurate, yadda, yadda, yadda?

  7. #127
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    If people can 'live' on that and continue to have kids and get that expanded to cover the kids...where is there any incentive to work?

    All some people require is a couch, a TV, the Internet (pretty cheap), and food. Medical is already taken care of. :-\
    Well, I'd propose to keep the income low, too low for a single person to live on their own - I see nothing wrong with 3,4,5, people sharing an apartment - I had two room-mates when I moved-out at 17, and we split everything, and ate & lived ... really cheap! Lot's of people with very low incomes live by sharing places or living with parents, friends, and relatives - when I bought my house & was single I rented-out my spare bedroom to help-out friends & pay my mortgage.

    The idea is not to give someone enough to live a fully independent comfortable lifestyle, but just enough to keep them alive & off the streets. This might be something like $5-600/mo., as just a guess - I'm really not sure.

    The idea is to NOT provide means-tested benefits for select groups (with all the fraud & disincentive that entails), BUT still have some rudimentary net so no one need be fully destitute on the streets (unless so chosen). That's why I took healthcare out of the equation (via single-payer).

    I haven't given hard thought to kids, but I believe adding some additional percentage for minor children to be added to a resident supporting parent's base might be in order, as long as we don't incentify having kids on the base income alone (that's why it needs to be small)

    Trust me, I'm open to ideas on this at the moment, because it strikes me as an interesting system. I though it was crazy when a buddy of mine first brought it up, but now I'm thinking it might have possibilities.

    (I abhor means-tested social-systems)
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  8. #128
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No. that is the nice thing about negative tax. Everyone gets the same and there is no need to test.
    Perhaps my understanding is flawed.

    Doesn't one need to be under a certain income threshold to receive the 'benefit' portion?
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    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

  9. #129
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Perhaps my understanding is flawed.

    Doesn't one need to be under a certain income threshold to receive the 'benefit' portion?
    No threshhold. But just google 'negative tax wiki'. The article is quite good.

  10. #130
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    Re: Should we end welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Well, I'd propose to keep the income low, too low for a single person to live on their own - I see nothing wrong with 3,4,5, people sharing an apartment - I had two room-mates when I moved-out at 17, and we split everything, and ate & lived ... really cheap! Lot's of people with very low incomes live by sharing places or living with parents, friends, and relatives - when I bought my house & was single I rented-out my spare bedroom to help-out friends & pay my mortgage.
    They can do that now. They dont...or some do. But no one 'forces' them to do so, they just keep applying for and receiving welfare.

    And if it's too low to live on...then they still need 'welfare' and you still arent forcing them to get jobs any more so than before when you were handing them $$ for nothing.

    I'm not knocking your motives but it sounds no different than welfare.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Jerkoffness is protected by The Constitution. That's what makes America great.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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