View Poll Results: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

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  • No minimal standard. Where there's smoke.....

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  • Reasonable Suspicion

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  • Probable Cause

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  • Preponderance of the Evidence

    1 3.70%
  • Clear and Convincing

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  • Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

    23 85.19%
  • Beyond All Possible Doubt

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Thread: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

  1. #11
    Dungeon Master
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    That's how prosecution always works - throw the book at em and coerce them into pleading to a lesser charge. That, and a 95% conviction rate, is how 90% of cases never go to trial. If not for plea bargains, within a month our courts would be backlogged so far we'd either have to spend billions upon billions adding new courts and public lawyers (plea deals is how a NYC lawyer can manage 1000 defendants), or stop prosecuting many crimes altogether

    Our system isn't really adversarial, or even about justice, so much as streamlining things.
    I'll greet your cynicism with some of my own and say that the majority of people don't have a problem pleading guilty because they are, in fact, guilty and they're just hoping for the best possible deal. You're right though, system would collapse if every single person charged from a traffic ticket to murder insisted on a jury trial.

  2. #12
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I'll greet your cynicism with some of my own and say that the majority of people don't have a problem pleading guilty because they are, in fact, guilty and they're just hoping for the best possible deal. You're right though, system would collapse if every single person charged from a traffic ticket to murder insisted on a jury trial.
    If they weren't charged with 2nd degree murder, the prosecutor would have nothing to bargain with, as the public would never accept a 2nd degree manslaughter plea. That's how it goes in just about every case where someone's killed and self defense is certainly questionable

    It'd be fine with me to do away with plea bargains, but that's the explanation i'm going with

  3. #13
    Dungeon Master
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    If they weren't charged with 2nd degree murder, the prosecutor would have nothing to bargain with, as the public would never accept a 2nd degree manslaughter plea. That's how it goes in just about every case where someone's killed and self defense is certainly questionable

    It'd be fine with me to do away with plea bargains, but that's the explanation i'm going with
    I'll bet you these cops don't take any plea and quite frankly, what the public accepts or wants should be irrelevant.

  4. #14
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Same as everyone else. Beyond a reasonable doubt.

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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I'll bet you these cops don't take any plea and quite frankly, what the public accepts or wants should be irrelevant.
    well, i do believe that the only considerations should be the facts of the case and the victim

    one factor is that if the cops plea guilty to anything, they'll never get a job in public safety again. The prosecutor should've charged them with manslaughter then and gone for a guilty verdict, which seems a lot more likely to succeed. Perhaps you're right then and the murder charge was just political

  6. #16
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Police on trial should be given the same standard as everyone else. The problem is that our culture likes to defer to authority and tends to support police without thinking. That's why police almost never even see trial when they commit crimes.
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  7. #17
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Nobody? You feel confident that if those cops are acquitted, it will be calmly accepted? It won't be because a lot of people think these cops should be convicted, like, right now and not doing so will be a failure of the racist jury (it won't matter that 3 of the cops are black and the one with the highest charge is a black woman) or the corrupt system etc.
    That's an entirely different question.

    People get upset when criminals they perceive to be guilty get let off. This isn't specific to police officers.

    You want to prove your assertion? Find someone who actually says the standard of evidence should be lower.
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  8. #18
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Personally, I think Marilyn Mosby State Atty of Maryland came out of the gates and sounded like a friggin politician to appease the blood thirsty crowd calling for these cops to be hung first and ask questions later.

    Her whole statement in her press conference was so political and her words themselves had already convicted the officers before trial.

    She's got a big problem with the Gray family attorney is one of her biggest political donors.

    The women should recuse herself. In fact the trial should be moved from Baltimore to insure the officers get a fair trial. In her press conference her own words have tainted the jury pool.

    Not only that what has been leaked to the press versus what Mosby charged the officers with isn't jiving. In any other case across this land the charges against these officers would be a long stretch to get passed a Grand Jury.

    And if that happens that the Grand Jury can not find probable cause then the officer will not go to trial then what? More of the asinine behavior we have seen by those rioting in Baltimore?

    From the mayor telling cops to stand down while they destroyed numerous businesses, injured dozens of officers, not to begin to mention the cost to all the taxpayers over all the mayhem, because it has been handled poorly. And when a bunch of folks have proved they are incompetent in dealing with this, the cases against the officers should be moved to another location to insure they have a fair trial.

  9. #19
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    But what if these cops are acquitted because the prosecution couldn't meet that high standard of proof? Isn't that why you stated you'd be completely fine with someone attacking or even killing cops for being cops? No standard of proof required.
    No. Either your comprehension skills are lacking or you are deliberately lying about what I said.
    I said I would find it hard to care, not that I would be completely fine or even ok with it. It used to be the default was to care. They have a difficult job.

    But today's police forces act more like a criminal gang. The entire justice system acts like a criminal gang. Not a fan of either at this point.
    • asset forfeiture. Carrying a large amount of cash around? Must be drug money. If you can prove it isn't you might get it back. I.e. guilty until proven innocent.
    • internal immigration check points that use drug sniffing dogs to create probable cause. Never mind that police don't even track the dog's performance. Is a positive really a positive? Or just prompting?
    • TSA rape stations
    • judges that accept 'afluenza' as an acceptable reason not jail a drunk driver that killed 4 people
    • judges that sign warrants for 8 hour medical procedures that include multiple rectal searches, and colonoscopies based on 'butt clenching'
    • stop and frisk
    • cops that don't like the 2nd amendment
    • cops that yell 'camera'
    • cops that think the absolute worst crime is to disrespect them. The usual sentence is a beating or death. Maybe all americans should meek little sheep and just bend over?
    • no-knock warrants
    • SWAT raids for 'animal cruelty'.
    • SWAT raids that kill the family dog, especially when they have the wrong fing house.
    • SWAT raids to enforce copyright law
    • SWAT raids looking for stolen koi
    • for-profit prisons
    • cash incentives for the number of arrests or convictions


    America isn't the land of the free anymore.

    Why should I try to hard to care about the people making it that way? Or at least not stopping their brethren from making it that way.
    I would, by default, care about their families' pain.
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  10. #20
    Dungeon Master
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    Re: When a Cop (or Former Cop) is Put on Trial, What Should the Standard of Proof Be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    No. Either your comprehension skills are lacking or you are deliberately lying about what I said.
    I said I would find it hard to care, not that I would be completely fine or even ok with it. It used to be the default was to care. They have a difficult job.
    If you don't give a **** that it happened, that means you're fine with it. I didn't really care who won the Super Bowl so I was completly fine with the result no matter what the result actually was. Not sure who you think you're fooling.

    But today's police forces act more like a criminal gang. The entire justice system acts like a criminal gang. Not a fan of either at this point.
    • asset forfeiture. Carrying a large amount of cash around? Must be drug money. If you can prove it isn't you might get it back. I.e. guilty until proven innocent.
    • internal immigration check points that use drug sniffing dogs to create probable cause. Never mind that police don't even track the dog's performance. Is a positive really a positive? Or just prompting?
    • TSA rape stations
    • judges that accept 'afluenza' as an acceptable reason not jail a drunk driver that killed 4 people
    • judges that sign warrants for 8 hour medical procedures that include multiple rectal searches, and colonoscopies based on 'butt clenching'
    • stop and frisk
    • cops that don't like the 2nd amendment
    • cops that yell 'camera'
    • cops that think the absolute worst crime is to disrespect them. The usual sentence is a beating or death. Maybe all americans should meek little sheep and just bend over?
    • no-knock warrants
    • SWAT raids for 'animal cruelty'.
    • SWAT raids that kill the family dog, especially when they have the wrong fing house.
    • SWAT raids to enforce copyright law
    • SWAT raids looking for stolen koi
    • for-profit prisons
    • cash incentives for the number of arrests or convictions


    America isn't the land of the free anymore.

    Why should I try to hard to care about the people making it that way?
    Or at least not stopping their brethren from making it that way.
    You shouldn't and if I was a cop or a family member of a cop I would want exactly zero from you. I'd sure as hell know not to expect anything from you. Of course, I'd be hard pressed to give a damn if you suddenly needed a cop and they were busy somewhere else doing something good for someone who didn't regard the idea of cop killing with a giant, "I don't have any problem with it", but I also know that most cops are better than that.


    I would, by default, care about their families' pain.
    Sure you would as you'd let them know just how much they deserved it and/or just how little you give a ****. You also made it clear you'd be fine with it regardless of the circumstances of a cop's injury/death. It doesn't matter. Your concern or lack of it would be pretty damn useless anyway.

    I do like how you put "animal cruelty" in quotes like it's not a real crime.
    Last edited by X Factor; 05-03-15 at 10:01 PM.

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