• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%
  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%

  • Total voters
    45
No, it is one size fits all.

AA/CA are crutches. If the only reason you do not drink/get high is because of AA/CA meetings, then you have not quit anything.

I was an addict...there is only one way to properly quit an addiction...STOP doing it and STOP associating with those who do.
OMG!

I didn't realize it was that simple!

Why are all those addicts & alkies doing all that pain, misery, suffering, jail and death stuff? When all they've got to do is STOP USING!

It's so easy! I'll tell everyone right away - dayem buddy, you're good!

+++

O.K., enough of being facetious.

But if it were so easy, it wouldn't be called addiction.

Which is why there's so many paths to sobriety. It's not the "stopping using" - we all know that beaks the cycle & ends active addiction. But it's, "How do you stop"? And the answer to that is NOT the same for everyone.

Seriously, if stopping were so easy as putting it down, there wouldn't be the death, destitution, and incarceration we see as the result of addiction.

Do you know how many times addicts & alkies say, "After this time, I'm done". And then they are using the next day? Saying/thinking "This is my last day/drink/bump/fix" is a hallmark addiction!
 
The organization I was talking about specifically was not AA, but "AA-like" in the sense they do treatment, counseling, and so on. I do not know if they were all volunteers, but they do have their own office space (3 or 4, actually), assigned counselors, assigned people to administer tests, etc., so I would imagine they have costs of some sort. They come off as more of a business, and less of a support group that meets in a church parlor.

Oh. That's completely different. I would agree with you, then. Definitely conflict of interest.

Your point about AA specifically is well-taken, though.

Thank you.
 
Actually that's not true.


Understanding is the last thing an addict needs. An addict will tell you they simply need more understanding forever. They're an addict. Cold turkey that person and get them away from that lifestyle and put them around strong individuals and they'll lose their addiction. Nobody ever lost an addiction through "Pampering the addiction".

Again, this demonstrates absolutely no understanding of addiction or treatment. No one is suggesting that one "pampers an addict", but understanding of any mental disorder is helpful in assisting in recovery.
 
I went once with a buddy that got a DUI.
Far from an alcoholic, they made him stand in front of the class and forced him to "admit" that he was.
Or leave with out credit for the course.
I was asked to do the same because I came with him, I told them yep. Iam a drinker and when I leave here I am heading to Golden Q to shoot pool and DRINK A BEER OR FIVE.
Its a scam now that is aligned with MADD and the courts.
I am sure there are people that benefit from it. Good on them for seeing their drinking as an issue.
I go weeks without a drink. Don't miss it, don't crave it. But I like a beer a couple times a week and sit with friends at home or at our favorite bar after work.
That level of drinking calls you a "drunk" by AA standards. Nothing worse than an ex drinker. Other than an ex smoker.

No. Your behavior would NOT identify you as an alcoholic by AA's standards.
 
No...he is right and you are wrong.

No, he's not. Not in the least.

I was a crack addict and I have known hundreds of people personally who were addicted to everything from booze to heroin...and you are dead wrong and he is dead right.

And I have known thousands of people who were personally addicted from everything from alcohol, to heroin, to gambling, to sex and you don't know what you are talking about and neither does Ryan.

And I bet you almost everyone whomI knew that has successfully quit and does not need crutches like AA/CA meetings to stay straight would agree with me.

And I guarantee that everyone whom I knew and is successfully in recovery used AA and would agree with me. Your perception of it as a crutch is complete nonsense and just demonstrates nothing but your bias.

Btw, you do realize that many people that go to AA/CA meetings and say they are straight are in fact still using and just go to the meetings to have everyone tell them they are loved so they can continue with their addiction? I knew several myself that did exactly that.

So what? You are using an exception to prove a rule. There is no question that you don't know what you are talking about. There is plenty of information that shows that support groups are helpful, more helpful than not using them when it comes to addiction. Doesn't mean it always works and doesn't mean that someone can't get into recovery without them. But the likelihood of success is greater with them. You don't like AA. Good for you. Your dislike demonstrates nothing about the facts of AA. It just demonstrates your dislike.

Good day.

Yes, yes, you already said that. I will continue to correct you when you make such glaring errors as you have, so you can continue to say "good day" to your hearts content.


Again, I am not saying AA/CA serves no purpose. But claiming this is the best way to help addicts is completely wrong.

Best? In conjunction with other treatments it is. Saying it isn't is completely wrong and is just demonstrative of your bias.

It is nothing more then a crutch.

Not in the least. You seem to need to tell yourself this in order to justify your bias.

The only proper way to end your addiction is to get away from those who use and just quit. It is never easy...but nothing truly worthwhile ever is.

Your absolute statements belie your failure to demonstrate your point. There are many ways to get into recovery. Probably one of the most effective is to stop using, stay away from people who do, and garner a solid support system to assist you in remaining in recovery.

That is how I quit. I moved away to a place where I knew no addicts and I spent six months staying straight and being around 'normal' people. When I returned, I no longer associated with addicts and have stayed clean ever since (that was in 2002).

Good for you. Your experience, however, does not apply to others.

If I went to Cocaine Annonymous meetings, I guarantee you I would eventually start again because all I would here about is all these stories about people feeling great on crack. Because all they do is sit around telling everyone else about their 'war' stories of how they got high for days and how great the stuff was and blah blah.
That is the last thing I want to hear.

If that's the kind of meeting you went to, you were going to the wrong meeting.
 
No, he's not. Not in the least.



And I have known thousands of people who were personally addicted from everything from alcohol, to heroin, to gambling, to sex and you don't know what you are talking about and neither does Ryan.



And I guarantee that everyone whom I knew and is successfully in recovery used AA and would agree with me. Your perception of it as a crutch is complete nonsense and just demonstrates nothing but your bias.



So what? You are using an exception to prove a rule. There is no question that you don't know what you are talking about. There is plenty of information that shows that support groups are helpful, more helpful than not using them when it comes to addiction. Doesn't mean it always works and doesn't mean that someone can't get into recovery without them. But the likelihood of success is greater with them. You don't like AA. Good for you. Your dislike demonstrates nothing about the facts of AA. It just demonstrates your dislike.



Yes, yes, you already said that. I will continue to correct you when you make such glaring errors as you have, so you can continue to say "good day" to your hearts content.




Best? In conjunction with other treatments it is. Saying it isn't is completely wrong and is just demonstrative of your bias.



Not in the least. You seem to need to tell yourself this in order to justify your bias.



Your absolute statements belie your failure to demonstrate your point. There are many ways to get into recovery. Probably one of the most effective is to stop using, stay away from people who do, and garner a solid support system to assist you in remaining in recovery.



Good for you. Your experience, however, does not apply to others.



If that's the kind of meeting you went to, you were going to the wrong meeting.

Oh Jeez...why didn't you just mini-quote every word I used.

:roll:

I don't do multiple multi-quotes...I have a life.


Good day.
 
Oh Jeez...why didn't you just mini-quote every word I used.

:roll:

Don't like it? Too bad. I'll address each of your points as I feel fit.

I don't do multiple multi-quotes...I have a life.


Good day.

Don't want to respond? That's OK with me. And you keep saying "good day" but you keep coming back.
 
Likewise the Al-anon sponsor needs to be somebody who has been through it all, has seen everything, has done it, understands it,
and won't buy a lot of bull**** when he or she hears it.

I'm not quite through the thread yet--but your post #137 and ones before this are worth noting for others.
Being my generation, you're a wise old owl--teasing on the owl--I mean the old. :mrgreen:

So I short-quoted this part.
Let me say that Al-Anon hasn't got nearly enough kudos in this thread so far.
It took forever and was almost pointless to get Mom to go since Dad's problem wasn't "her" problem".

Suffice it to say I don't want to take my finger out of my own dike.
I will say it does alcoholics a lot of good to go to Al-Anon meetings--since they very often have an Al-Anon problem also--since the circle hasn't been unbroken .
 
Again, this demonstrates absolutely no understanding of addiction or treatment.
No one is suggesting that one "pampers an addict", but understanding of any mental disorder is helpful in assisting in recovery.

One of the best threads I've seen on DP in my 28 months--as so many will benefit without anyone ever knowing it.
So much heart-breaking info given voluntarily--I hope there is a way to keep the comments in this thread out of ALL other forums.

You've done a great job in contributing from your professional experience--I still pay for that in RL btw.
You've done well in redirecting towards positive outcomes and INDIRECTLY doing your job as administrator.
I thank you for that--this is a thread that needs to stay positive, successful and forward-looking.
That's all we can control--today, tomorrow, and the plannable future.

So I'll leave you with Neil Young as I stated to my high school students for decades.
"The Needle and the Damage Done"
Simply replace Needle with Alcohol or whatever ills one and there you go.

Let me also mention I've seen very little if anything on ABUSE versus Addiction.
I've seen a very clear line between these two in my life experiences .
 
I'm not quite through the thread yet--but your post #137 and ones before this are worth noting for others.
Being my generation, you're a wise old owl--teasing on the owl--I mean the old. :mrgreen:

So I short-quoted this part.
Let me say that Al-Anon hasn't got nearly enough kudos in this thread so far.
It took forever and was almost pointless to get Mom to go since Dad's problem wasn't "her" problem".

Suffice it to say I don't want to take my finger out of my own dike.
I will say it does alcoholics a lot of good to go to Al-Anon meetings--since they very often have an Al-Anon problem also--since the circle hasn't been unbroken .

Thanks. There are a few bad AA groups out there that are not honestly following the spirit of the program, and there are probably more bad Al-Anon groups on that score than there are AA groups. Both the 'bad acts' are pretty rare. A good Al-Anon can be invaluable to help the co-dependent learn and advance as his or her loved one does. Of course alcoholism can rip a family or relationship apart and many of the non-alcoholics bail out rather than tolerate what is an intolerable situation. But many also stick it out and the alcoholism, co-dependent behavior including all the provocation, enabling, hiding it, rescuing, denial etc. become as much a way of life for her as it is for him.

So he goes to AA--it is HIS problem after all as she sees it--and she sees absolutely no reason she needs Al-anon. But as he begins to regain his life, she is still mired in the old thought patterns and perceptions, the old tapes run, the controlling behaviors stop working well as he gets well. Not only does she sometimes resent that he would do it for the people in AA when he wouldn't do it for her, the relationship becomes more and more uncomfortable for her. It just doesn't 'feel' like she expected it to feel. And eventually she either becomes so out of control he has to leave, or she leaves believing he just isn't the man she married and now it is obvious he never will be.

Which is why we see so many split up after he stops drinking. It is just one of those whole ugly dynamics that gets caught in the machinery.

So yes ladies or gentlemen. Whether your loved is still drinking or not, Al-Anon can change both of your lives and your children's for the better.
 
Thanks. There are a few bad AA groups out there that are not honestly following the spirit of the program, and there are probably more bad Al-Anon groups on that score than there are AA groups. Both the 'bad acts' are pretty rare. A good Al-Anon can be invaluable to help the co-dependent learn and advance as his or her loved one does. Of course alcoholism can rip a family or relationship apart and many of the non-alcoholics bail out rather than tolerate what is an intolerable situation. But many also stick it out and the alcoholism, co-dependent behavior including all the provocation, enabling, hiding it, rescuing, denial etc. become as much a way of life for her as it is for him.

So he goes to AA--it is HIS problem after all as she sees it--and she sees absolutely no reason she needs Al-anon. But as he begins to regain his life, she is still mired in the old thought patterns and perceptions, the old tapes run, the controlling behaviors stop working well as he gets well. Not only does she sometimes resent that he would do it for the people in AA when he wouldn't do it for her, the relationship becomes more and more uncomfortable for her. It just doesn't 'feel' like she expected it to feel. And eventually she either becomes so out of control he has to leave, or she leaves believing he just isn't the man she married and now it is obvious he never will be.

Which is why we see so many split up after he stops drinking. It is just one of those whole ugly dynamics that gets caught in the machinery.

So yes ladies or gentlemen. Whether your loved is still drinking or not, Al-Anon can change both of your lives and your children's for the better.

Dad's gone now and even though he quit, it was way too late.
Mix in the meds from the VA and now you have an Alzheimer's patient for the last five years of his life.
Something our VA and Military Personnel are now having a helluva time dealing with--the drug cocktail of meds and alcohol and cigs etc.

AA and Al-Anon couldn't help my parents but they helped me a little.
Though I didn't like being handed a pack of generic cigs and coffee at AA when I had quit cigs.

My Mom telling me not to come home any more in 1984--the old tough Love thing--that did help.
But I went back two years ago after 29 years and have to face it again--this time for my Wife--I've always needed a reason--it's just who I am.
Not to mention the cancer sticks--after 31 years quitting--go figure.
By the time I get terminally sick, it will be too late for myself.

I've seen it in my sport of wrestling since I started in junior high at 12-YOA in 1967.
Why drink if you're not gonna get drunk--but we were only "weekend" alkies back then right?

College today--I wouldn't be scheduling classes on Fridays--what with all of the 'Thirsty Thursday' bashes.
And tailgating--quite the American pastime--get sloshed before the game.

There was a reason for Prohibition--but the problem was far too enormous for our society to deal with.
What with crooked politicians on down the line.
From the gutter level boozer to the high lifer.
And of course the five crime families firmly entrenched from the 1920s on.

Addiction AND Abuse, I see a clear distinction, are an overwhelming plague on our society, especially with the new designer drugs.
All each of us can do is stay within and control ourselves--and get whatever help we need--and help others.
This is why I see so many former addicts/abusers going into the social fields .
 
One of the best threads I've seen on DP in my 28 months--as so many will benefit without anyone ever knowing it.
So much heart-breaking info given voluntarily--I hope there is a way to keep the comments in this thread out of ALL other forums.

You've done a great job in contributing from your professional experience--I still pay for that in RL btw.
You've done well in redirecting towards positive outcomes and INDIRECTLY doing your job as administrator.
I thank you for that--this is a thread that needs to stay positive, successful and forward-looking.
That's all we can control--today, tomorrow, and the plannable future.

So I'll leave you with Neil Young as I stated to my high school students for decades.
"The Needle and the Damage Done"
Simply replace Needle with Alcohol or whatever ills one and there you go.

Let me also mention I've seen very little if anything on ABUSE versus Addiction.
I've seen a very clear line between these two in my life experiences .

Oh and I meant to comment on the abuse versus addiction.

Many abuse many substances from bacon to sugar to tobacco to cannabis to alcohol et al and can even do serious damage to their health in the process, but they are not addicted. They may miss the substance if they stop, even feel deprived, but there are no withdrawal symptoms, no mental or physical discomfort, no emotional distress. And such people, even if they do get a DUI or get drunk inappropriately or behave badly when drunk, they know what they did and they can proactively not do that again.

If deprived of the substance, sooner or later, the addict feels uncomfortable, out of sorts, abnormal, anxious, distressed, miserable. Which is why the life of most alcoholics revolves around drinking--thinking about the next drink, planning it, figuring out how to make it happen, talking about it, dreaming about it. He will go to great lengths to prove to his loved ones or associates that he doesn't have a problem--he'll leave half a drink or turn down one as evidence for instance--but he has a game plan for how to make up for that later.

The binge drinker who is alcoholic is a little more complicated. He can go days or even weeks without drinking, but once he starts drinking that's it. He won't stop until the liquor is gone or he passes out or literally can drink no more. It is commonly said that it isn't the second, third, fourth, tenth drink that gets the alcoholic in trouble--it is that first one.
 
Last edited:
Oh and I meant to comment on the abuse versus addiction.

Many abuse many substances from bacon to sugar to tobacco to cannabis to alcohol et al and can even do serious damage to their health in the process, but they are not addicted. They may miss the substance if they stop, even feel deprived, but there are no withdrawal symptoms, no mental or physical discomfort, no emotional distress.

If deprived of the substance, sooner or later, the addict feels uncomfortable, out of sorts, abnormal, anxious, distressed, miserable. Which is why the life of most alcoholics revolves around drinking--thinking about the next drink, planning it, figuring out how to make it happen, talking about it, dreaming about it. He will go to great lengths to prove to his loved ones or associates that he doesn't have a problem--he'll leave half a drink or turn down one as evidence for instance--but he has a game plan for how to make up for that later.

The binge drinker is a little more complicated. He can go days or even weeks without drinking, but once he starts drinking that's it. He won't stop until the liquor is gone or he passes out or literally can drink no more. It is commonly said that it isn't the second, third, fourth, tenth drink that gets the alcoholic in trouble--it is that first one.
'
The binge drinker is certainly an appropriate topic for this thread--has been since I was in college starting in 1971.
Seems like each new generation has to outdrink and out-stupid the previous ones.
Which always helped me coming from the late 60s teaching high school--as I still feel we were the most stupid.

Every time you hear of a bad situation in college or sports, etc.;
What have you with personal behavior--you can bet alcohol is right around the corner as the excuse.
Once the person has had too many drinks, very few would deny that alcohol is the ruination of mankind, as my Mom always put it.

Alcohol is THE gateway drug that continues to be advertised with all its glamour and glory on TV sports events.
And once the person's guard is down, and they're runnin with the pack, along comes every street drug that's out there .
 
You would think at some point in 30 years they would become strong enough to live their lives without the crutch.

Lots of posts to respond to, but I think it's a mistake to look at it like a 'crutch' or that those who continue to go to meetings aren't somehow 'strong.'

Why do people go to church, sometimes two or more times a week, week after week after week for their entire lives? Cause it is a 'crutch'? No, it's because the meetings/services provide something of benefit, and those benefits vary from one person to the next. Often old timers clearly get a sense of fulfillment out of helping others just coming in. Or they are unofficial or official leaders of the group. Or that's where they meet good friends they've cultivated over years. Or they need a reminder of what happens if they think a few drinks won't hurt too much. Etc.

I do agree with those who object to it being made mandatory. But the problem is the court has a person there that they assume or know has a severe alcohol or drug problem. Nothing will really matter unless/until that person gets THAT problem under control. If they're on drugs and are in front of a judge for stealing to buy drugs, quitting is step one, or the person WILL likely steal again, and it's just a matter of time. So the courts want to require treatment as a condition of parole or a suspended sentence. What are the options? A $10,000 rehab program for 30 days, more for 90 days? Who pays for that? No one. There is no public funding for structured treatment most places. But AA costs the court nothing, doesn't really cost the defendant anything - the donations are voluntary and in any event small - $1 is fine.

So people aren't getting sentenced to AA because they have a bunch of lobbyists making it happen to fatten the wallets of whoever publishes the big book. It's because AA/NA is the only real option without significant public funding paying for alternatives. Someone develops a similar program that runs on donations of $1 per person per meeting and I'm sure courts would be happy to give the person options. It is sad that there aren't other options. Drugs have shown to work, but if you've got a defendant in front of you with no money, what good is it to sentence them to rehab involving drugs and mental health services if they can't afford it?
 
'
The binge drinker is certainly an appropriate topic for this thread--has been since I was in college starting in 1971.
Seems like each new generation has to outdrink and out-stupid the previous ones.
Which always helped me coming from the late 60s teaching high school--as I still feel we were the most stupid.

Every time you hear of a bad situation in college or sports, etc.;
What have you with personal behavior--you can bet alcohol is right around the corner as the excuse.
Once the person has had too many drinks, very few would deny that alcohol is the ruination of mankind, as my Mom always put it.

Alcohol is THE gateway drug that continues to be advertised with all its glamour and glory on TV sports events.
And once the person's guard is down, and they're runnin with the pack, along comes every street drug that's out there .

That's probably true of the younger generation. I can't say it was ever the case with my loved one or me. Even when he was at the worst of his drinking, the idea of using recreational drugs was abhorrent to him and I was never tempted. But we have other younger friends and family members who did get hooked on multiple substances. And that definitely does complicate things.
 
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

It is a religion. There are those that need that cult brotherhood in order to find strength because they are weak. Much the same as religion helps people "be kind to others" when that ability is already within them.
 
Dad's gone now and even though he quit, it was way too late.
Mix in the meds from the VA and now you have an Alzheimer's patient for the last five years of his life.
Something our VA and Military Personnel are now having a helluva time dealing with--the drug cocktail of meds and alcohol and cigs etc.

AA and Al-Anon couldn't help my parents but they helped me a little.
Though I didn't like being handed a pack of generic cigs and coffee at AA when I had quit cigs.

My Mom telling me not to come home any more in 1984--the old tough Love thing--that did help.
But I went back two years ago after 29 years and have to face it again--this time for my Wife--I've always needed a reason--it's just who I am.
Not to mention the cancer sticks--after 31 years quitting--go figure.
By the time I get terminally sick, it will be too late for myself.

I've seen it in my sport of wrestling since I started in junior high at 12-YOA in 1967.
Why drink if you're not gonna get drunk--but we were only "weekend" alkies back then right?

College today--I wouldn't be scheduling classes on Fridays--what with all of the 'Thirsty Thursday' bashes.
And tailgating--quite the American pastime--get sloshed before the game.

There was a reason for Prohibition--but the problem was far too enormous for our society to deal with.
What with crooked politicians on down the line.
From the gutter level boozer to the high lifer.
And of course the five crime families firmly entrenched from the 1920s on.

Addiction AND Abuse, I see a clear distinction, are an overwhelming plague on our society, especially with the new designer drugs.
All each of us can do is stay within and control ourselves--and get whatever help we need--and help others.
This is why I see so many former addicts/abusers going into the social fields .

Thanks for sharing....
 
It is a religion. There are those that need that cult brotherhood in order to find strength because they are weak. Much the same as religion helps people "be kind to others" when that ability is already within them.

Thanks for that enlightening comment. I've got 29 years sobriety...thanks to AA...and I AM AN ATHEIST!
 
Lots of posts to respond to, but I think it's a mistake to look at it like a 'crutch' or that those who continue to go to meetings aren't somehow 'strong.'

Why do people go to church, sometimes two or more times a week, week after week after week for their entire lives? Cause it is a 'crutch'? No, it's because the meetings/services provide something of benefit, and those benefits vary from one person to the next. Often old timers clearly get a sense of fulfillment out of helping others just coming in. Or they are unofficial or official leaders of the group. Or that's where they meet good friends they've cultivated over years. Or they need a reminder of what happens if they think a few drinks won't hurt too much. Etc.

I do agree with those who object to it being made mandatory. But the problem is the court has a person there that they assume or know has a severe alcohol or drug problem. Nothing will really matter unless/until that person gets THAT problem under control. If they're on drugs and are in front of a judge for stealing to buy drugs, quitting is step one, or the person WILL likely steal again, and it's just a matter of time. So the courts want to require treatment as a condition of parole or a suspended sentence. What are the options? A $10,000 rehab program for 30 days, more for 90 days? Who pays for that? No one. There is no public funding for structured treatment most places. But AA costs the court nothing, doesn't really cost the defendant anything - the donations are voluntary and in any event small - $1 is fine.

So people aren't getting sentenced to AA because they have a bunch of lobbyists making it happen to fatten the wallets of whoever publishes the big book. It's because AA/NA is the only real option without significant public funding paying for alternatives. Someone develops a similar program that runs on donations of $1 per person per meeting and I'm sure courts would be happy to give the person options. It is sad that there aren't other options. Drugs have shown to work, but if you've got a defendant in front of you with no money, what good is it to sentence them to rehab involving drugs and mental health services if they can't afford it?

The crutch is "needing" a group in the first place.
 
Thanks for that enlightening comment. I've got 29 years sobriety...thanks to AA...and I AM AN ATHEIST!

No, you have 29 years sobriety thanks to you and your will power. don't give credit to others when it is all you brother. Seriously.
 
No, you have 29 years sobriety thanks to you and your will power. don't give credit to others when it is all you brother. Seriously.

Thanks, Bod, but once again we'll have to disagree. SERIOUSLY. I'm not a ****ing dunce.
 
Now, if those programs keep these people sober...fine. But I have been to those meetings. And I know that those organizations AA/CA ARE Christian recruitment groups...period. And that is my problem with AA/CA. That they prey on people's weaknesses to get people into the God-club.

If it didn't help you, that's fine. But it's just false that they're nothing more than Christian recruitment groups. My town has about 30 different meetings, and 30 different personalities. I don't know how many thousands of meetings there are in the U.S. but it's many thousands. Some are "God" based, many aren't. Basically the meetings are whatever somewhere between 5 and 100 or so people want them to be, so making broad declarations about what they "ARE" is really misguided or at least misleading.

There is no reason that an organization that does not have a Christian agenda could not do the same thing.

True, but right now this alternative is just speculative in most cities.

And to those that say they 'need' these organizations? I say that you have not looked at yourself hard enough if you say that. Because the reason you do these things is within you. And until you understand that reason, you will never truly be free of your addiction.
Unfortunately, addicts usually like the easy way out (no insult intended - I did/do it too), so doing something as long and hard as true self-analyzation is not something that comes easy to addicted people. Escaping is their thing, not self-reflecting.

Doing the program correctly requires quite a bit of "self analyzation." Just as an example, making amends isn't "escaping." Neither is the process of the "searching and fearless inventory" or discussing that with another person. Again, no problem that it doesn't work for you but you're not being fair to the program either.
 
Attend an open AA meeting or two. You'll find out your assessment that it's a lot of "poor me" is quite far from the truth.

They pass around the pint bottle don't they, admit it.
 
The crutch is "needing" a group in the first place.

First of all, I was responding to a person who implied that if someone goes to meetings for 30 years, AA is a crutch because they're not "strong." I don't agree. Lots of reasons to go to meetings, and there are lots of incredibly strong and inspiring people in AA, successful outside AA, etc.

Second, if it's a "crutch" so what? Obviously those who attend even 1 meeting voluntarily have tried to quit 'on their own' and failed. If they're not manly enough to white knuckle it and need some help. what's the problem? It's sort of the general attitude in this country on mental health in general - if you need some help, you're not "strong" or something. It's a wrong headed way to look at it IMO. Yes, some people cannot just white knuckle an addiction that actually is potentially fatal if self treated. Withdrawal is a medical event that requires medical supervision, and getting over the physical addiction that makes quitting a medical event is damn hard and some people do need help. They're not some kind of failed human being because of it. Some people need the support of others, and often those who attend AA do not have support anywhere else.
 
Back
Top Bottom