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Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%
  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%

  • Total voters
    45
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.



AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

This post demonstrates so much ignorance on addiction and recovery, it's hard to know where to start. When you put a group of people together, trying to be in recovery in regards to a certain issue, like addiction, what you often find is that they gather strength from each other. The support group model is well established and well researched as a successful modality for recovery and for assistance with a wide variety of issues. However, it IS important for those in a recovery group to be aiming towards recovery. If they are a group of folks who want to remain active addicts, then of course, the group will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Groups that I run for people who have various issues, MUST want to be in recovery in order to be in the group. Without that criteria, an individual could easily potentially poison the rest of the group.
 
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.



AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

I don't think that's fair at all. Rehab centers full of addicts don't work because they're full of addicts? I don't understand what that means at all. "Rehab centers" don't exist to cure addicts, they exist as a safe place for addicts to go through acute withdrawal under medical supervision, give addicts peers who understand them and can talk openly and honestly with them, and equip addicts with the knowledge and resources they may need to stay sober once they get out. That's it. It's not a secret that most people don't stay sober forever.

The cold turkey approach you're advocating does nothing but instill in people a sense of shame over their disease and the danger there is that they will continue to use drugs or alcohol secretly. It doesn't work any more than AA or maintenance therapy and you won't find a study in the world that says otherwise. What you're saying is statistically untrue. We have yet to develop a successful treatment for addiction, but when we do, it won't be called "cold turkey." That's a dumb, outdated idea and a John Lennon song, both of which I'm all too familiar with.
 
There are no salaries with AA. There is no one providing treatment. AA is a support group. "Treatment" indicates professionals providing this. That is not what is happening in AA. Courts assign people to go to AA meeting because they have seen it be helpful. AA really doesn't get anything out of it.
The organization I was talking about specifically was not AA, but "AA-like" in the sense they do treatment, counseling, and so on. I do not know if they were all volunteers, but they do have their own office space (3 or 4, actually), assigned counselors, assigned people to administer tests, etc., so I would imagine they have costs of some sort. They come off as more of a business, and less of a support group that meets in a church parlor.

Your point about AA specifically is well-taken, though.
 
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.



AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

This is just all kinds of wrong. Having addicts around other addicts who are working toward the same goal has worked many times over. Having people to talk to who are also working through it is very effective. Far more so than dealing with a bunch of people telling you to just quit doing drugs or drinking. Understanding and support go a long way toward helping someone over come their addictions.
 
Understanding and support go a long way toward helping someone over come their addictions.


Actually that's not true.


Understanding is the last thing an addict needs. An addict will tell you they simply need more understanding forever. They're an addict. Cold turkey that person and get them away from that lifestyle and put them around strong individuals and they'll lose their addiction. Nobody ever lost an addiction through "Pampering the addiction".
 
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.



AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

As an 'ex'-crack addict, I gotta tell you, you nailed it.

Addicts are weak...period. I was one and I was and the other addicts I knew were the most pathetically weak people I have ever met. 98% of them were either thief's or INCREDIBLE mooches. Every single one of them wanted to quit and almost every one of them justified their thievery/mooching. When they got together, they just reinforced those feelings with each other.
The absolute last thing an addict needs is other incredibly weak addicts to tell them how great they are because all that often does is strengthen their belief in what they are doing...which is exactly what CA (cocaine anonymous...AA sister group) did. Everybody was wonderful...no matter what they did. Sure, quitting was the point. But where is the incentive to quit when everyone in your life tells you how wonderful you are (even though you are probably stealing/selling your body to feed your habit)?
You are not wonderful...you are messed up and you are doing illegal things to get high. You are NOT. A good person.
Good people do not abandon their children and/or steal just to feed a habit. Good people do not run from their responsibilities and force others to suffer just so they can feel better. Most addicts are NOT good people...but they can be by quitting.

I knew lots of people that went to CA meetings, claimed to the group that they had quit (when I knew they had not) just so they can 'feel the love'...and then go right back to using.

The ONLY way to kick a horrible habit is to quit it because you want to badly enough.

And let's not forget people, outside of physical addictions, the ONLY reason someone is dedicated to something is because they like it. Why else would they do it?
And that means they can stop whenever they want to. But that is the rub..they have to want to.

And going to meetings where everyone tells you that you are wonderful (even though deep inside you know you are not acting wonderful) is not the way to quit something for good.

Most addictions require pain and great discomfort to quit. If the only way you can stop is to have people constantly tell you how wonderful you are, then odds are you are not ready to quit.
Which is why most people that start a treatment program eventually go back to the addiction.

You have to want to quit on your own...others cannot make you want to, you have to do it.
 
I think AA helps some people quit drinking and stay sober.
That's a good thing.
Thumbs up.
Exactly!

Whether an alkie finds God, AA, internal fortitude, the fear of negative consequences, or the 3rd moon of Neptune, it's all good!

Active alcoholism (like many addictions) is a terrible human experience.

Good to those that find a (non-negative) way to to get out.
 
I went once with a buddy that got a DUI.
Far from an alcoholic, they made him stand in front of the class and forced him to "admit" that he was.
Or leave with out credit for the course.
I was asked to do the same because I came with him, I told them yep. Iam a drinker and when I leave here I am heading to Golden Q to shoot pool and DRINK A BEER OR FIVE.
Its a scam now that is aligned with MADD and the courts.
I am sure there are people that benefit from it. Good on them for seeing their drinking as an issue.
I go weeks without a drink. Don't miss it, don't crave it. But I like a beer a couple times a week and sit with friends at home or at our favorite bar after work.
That level of drinking calls you a "drunk" by AA standards. Nothing worse than an ex drinker. Other than an ex smoker.
 
This post demonstrates so much ignorance on addiction and recovery, it's hard to know where to start. When you put a group of people together, trying to be in recovery in regards to a certain issue, like addiction, what you often find is that they gather strength from each other. The support group model is well established and well researched as a successful modality for recovery and for assistance with a wide variety of issues. However, it IS important for those in a recovery group to be aiming towards recovery. If they are a group of folks who want to remain active addicts, then of course, the group will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Groups that I run for people who have various issues, MUST want to be in recovery in order to be in the group. Without that criteria, an individual could easily potentially poison the rest of the group.


No...he is right and you are wrong.

I was a crack addict and I have known hundreds of people personally who were addicted to everything from booze to heroin...and you are dead wrong and he is dead right.
And I bet you almost everyone whomI knew that has successfully quit and does not need crutches like AA/CA meetings to stay straight would agree with me.

Btw, you do realize that many people that go to AA/CA meetings and say they are straight are in fact still using and just go to the meetings to have everyone tell them they are loved so they can continue with their addiction? I knew several myself that did exactly that.

Good day.


Again, I am not saying AA/CA serves no purpose. But claiming this is the best way to help addicts is completely wrong.
It is nothing more then a crutch.
The only proper way to end your addiction is to get away from those who use and just quit. It is never easy...but nothing truly worthwhile ever is.

That is how I quit. I moved away to a place where I knew no addicts and I spent six months staying straight and being around 'normal' people. When I returned, I no longer associated with addicts and have stayed clean ever since (that was in 2002).
If I went to Cocaine Annonymous meetings, I guarantee you I would eventually start again because all I would here about is all these stories about people feeling great on crack. Because all they do is sit around telling everyone else about their 'war' stories of how they got high for days and how great the stuff was and blah blah.
That is the last thing I want to hear.
 
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No...he is right and you are wrong.

I was a crack addict and I have known hundreds of people personally who were addicted to everything from booze to heroin...and you are dead wrong and he is dead right.
And I bet you almost everyone whomI knew that has successfully quit and does not need crutches like AA/CA meetings to stay straight would agree with me.

Btw, you do realize that many people that go to AA/CA meetings and say they are straight are in fact still using and just go to the meetings to have everyone tell them they are loved so they can continue with their addiction? I knew several myself that did exactly that.

Good day.
It seems like you're attempting to present this as a bifurcated dichotomy, when it's not.

AA does not guarantee sobriety, nor is AA the only way.

But it does work for some people, and that's the important thing here.

Different things work for different addicts, and when fighting such a strong enemy with a human life at stake, it's good to have every weapon available to use as required.

Addiction recovery is not a 'one size fits all' - it's as varied as the addicted individuals themselves.
 
This post demonstrates so much ignorance on addiction and recovery, it's hard to know where to start. When you put a group of people together, trying to be in recovery in regards to a certain issue, like addiction, what you often find is that they gather strength from each other. The support group model is well established and well researched as a successful modality for recovery and for assistance with a wide variety of issues. However, it IS important for those in a recovery group to be aiming towards recovery. If they are a group of folks who want to remain active addicts, then of course, the group will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Groups that I run for people who have various issues, MUST want to be in recovery in order to be in the group. Without that criteria, an individual could easily potentially poison the rest of the group.

So be what YOU want them to be, or be kicked to the curb.
 
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.

AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

You don't pick a non-alcoholic to be your sponsor. You pick another drunk, just one that has learned to live productively without drinking. This is the guy or gal that you can't fool, can't lie to with impunity, can't manipulate, can't bamboozle. This person has been through it all, has seen everything, has done it, understands it, and won't buy your rationalizations, explanation, or defenses. He or she understands the addict far better than the addict understand himself yet. And he gently but effectively brings the addict into honesty which is the ONLY way anybody ever gets sober or breaks the power of addiction or codependency.

Likewise the Al-anon sponsor needs to be somebody who has been through it all, has seen everything, has done it, understands it, and won't buy a lot of bull**** when he or she hears it.

But for those who can't handle the truth yet, it sure makes them mad. So they walk out of the meetings and declare them bull**** et al.

Some get the program more easily than others. The less sick, i.e. the sooner into the addiction a person hits a bottom and is able to reach out for help, the more likely he or she is to get the program quickly. I have one dear friend, recently departed, who went through detox and formal treatment including AA meetings seven times!!!! before it finally took. But he finally did manage to get clean and sober, became one of the best sponsors and counselors imaginable, and lived magnificently for many years before he died. I have seen women sit angry and defensive in Al-anon meetings for months, sometimes as much as six months to a year, before one day something struck a responsive chord. The light came on. And they got it. And it changed their life for the better forever.

There is a remarkable sameness about the dynamics within the addictions while each person is going to be his/her own person with his/her own story and each person responds a little differently.

But AA has helped hundreds of thousands of people. I believe it will help anybody who really wants that kind of help and is capable of getting the program.
 
It seems like you're attempting to present this as a bifurcated dichotomy, when it's not.

AA does not guarantee sobriety, nor is AA the only way.

But it does work for some people, and that's the important thing here.

Different things work for different addicts, and when fighting such a strong enemy with a human life at stake, it's good to have every weapon available to use as required.

Addiction recovery is not a 'one size fits all' - it's as varied as the addicted individuals themselves.

No, it is one size fits all.

AA/CA are crutches. If the only reason you do not drink/get high is because of AA/CA meetings, then you have not quit anything.

I was an addict...there is only one way to properly quit an addiction...STOP doing it and STOP associating with those who do.

Sure, AA/CA are a crutch that helps people. But that is like saying that blood pressure pills fix hypertension. No...they don't. They just mask the problem and reduce the risks of a heart attack/stroke. But the underlying problem remains.
AA/CA does not usually fix the underlying cause of the addiction (if it did, you would not need to go to meetings, would you?), it just is a crutch (a blood pressure pill) that helps reduce the chances of you drinking. But it does not fix the underlying problem.

And 9 times out of 10, the underlying problem is the people involved are acting weakly. Until you face your demons, quit on your own and be strong only then have you defeated your addiction.

AA/CA cannot do that for you...you HAVE to do it yourself.


Now, I have never been to an AA meeting, but I did go to numerous CA (Cocaine Annonymous - their sister organization) meetings. And you will probably never meet a more pathetic group of thieves, con artists, low rent prostitutes and flat out mooches in your life. And you are seriously telling me that the best way to end an addiction to cocaine/crack is to hang out with this lot? Or to get as far away from them as possible?
 
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You don't pick a non-alcoholic to be your sponsor. You pick another drunk, just one that has learned to live productively without drinking. This is the guy or gal that you can't fool, can't lie to with impunity, can't manipulate, can't bamboozle. This person has been through it all, has seen everything, has done it, understands it, and won't buy your rationalizations, explanation, or defenses. He or she understands the addict far better than the addict understand himself yet. And he gently but effectively brings the addict into honesty which is the ONLY way anybody ever gets sober or breaks the power of addiction or codependency.
You display a great deal of insight.

Yes - brutal honesty is the only way to place active addiction into recovery.

And it's a powerful tool for success & happiness in life, I also believe.
 
Agreed. There is no "cure", there are only "treatments". You are right... most addicts remain active and no treatment really helps. But AA is one of the more successful ones out there. It certainly isn't for everyone, and there are people who do very well without it. But, as you said, slamming AA makes no sense, since it does have some effectiveness.

Except that AA is not "one of the more successful ones out there." It is, however, the most well-known and the most culturally ingrained. While the anonymity of the program makes it difficult to measure its effectiveness, there are many scientifically-sound studies on various treatment approaches that give us a fairly accurate measure of where it ranks.


Best estimates of AA's effectiveness come in around 5-10%. When you factor in a "spontaneous remission" rate of 5%, that leaves AA with a success rate of 0-5%.

George Vaillant is a Havard doctor that also sat on the AA Board of Directors. He clearly was pro-AA, and had a vested interest in seeing the organization succeed. He was, however, quite disappointed when his own research showed a success rate of 0%. In fact, AA was shown to be harmful in some instances.

In Dr. Vaillant's own words:

But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I and the director, William Clark, tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients, the Clinic sample described in Chapter 3, every year for the next 8 years. ...

Table 8.1 shows our treatment results. After initial discharge, only five patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease.. In table 8.1, the outcomes for the Clinic sample patients are contrasted with two-year follow-ups of four treatment programs that analyzed their data in a comparable way and admitted patients similar to ours. The Clinic sample results are also contrasted with three studies of equal duration that purported to offer no formal treatment. Although the treatment populations differ, the studies are roughly comparable; in hopes of averaging out major sampling differences, the studies are pooled. Costello (1975), Emrick (1975), and Hill and Blane (1967) have reviewed many more disparate two-year outcome studies and have noted roughly similar proportions of significantly improved and unimproved alcoholics. Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.


In A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests, a study conducted by Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma and his colleagues concluded offenders sent to AA for several months were binge drinking at a rate 5 times higher than offenders that received no treatment at all, and 9 times higher than offenders that received RBT (rational behavior therapy).

In Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment Approaches: Effective Alternatives, 48 treatment modalities were compared. 12-Step facilitation and Alcoholics Anonymous ranked 37 and 38, respectively. Other treatments that outperformed AA included acupuncture, hypnosis, psychedelic medications, and exercise. Even attention placebo fared better.

Behavior Therapy Associates LLC


The first two studies I mentioned, along with many others, can be found here:

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment

While I recognize the author of the second link is no fan of AA, his research is meticulously cited/sourced, and he refers almost exclusively to randomized longitudinal controlled studies.

**Apologies! It seems I have to split post!**
 
(Continued from previous)


I personally believe addiction is a very complex medical problem. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. I also understand the reluctance of laypeople and professionals to criticize anything that might help an alcoholic or addict, because nobody wants to deter or discourage them making a positive change. AA and 12-Step programs... "recovery," so-to-speak, have become so culturally ingrained they are almost considered "above reproach" by many. I don't think that's wise or that the organization has earned that kind of following, particularly in light of the evidence. In fact, resistance to 12-Step programs are frequently pointed to as "evidence" the alcoholic/addict is still "in denial."

Newcomers are frequently discouraged from using their own critical thinking skills when raising legitimate questions where AA is concerned, with comments like "Your best thinking got you here." "Take the cotton out of your ears, and put it in your mouth." "Let the group/your sponsor do your thinking for you." They are told failure is never the Program's fault, but the fault of the individual.

IMHO, the very nature of AA discourages the majority of people it doesn't work for from looking for more suitable alternatives. I think that's harmful, particularly to alcoholics and addicts that are likely already dealing with low self-esteem and other emotional/behavioral issues.

I always found it humorous that members are frequently told "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." Except, apparently, in cases of failed 12-Step Treatment (the vast majority) -- where they're advised to "Keep Coming Back!"

Just my :twocents:

Thanks for reading! :)
 
You display a great deal of insight.

Yes - brutal honesty is the only way to place active addiction into recovery.

And it's a powerful tool for success & happiness in life, I also believe.

Thanks. I got that insight the hard way. :)
 
I personally believe addiction is a very complex medical problem. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. I also understand the reluctance of laypeople and professionals to criticize anything that might help an alcoholic or addict, because nobody wants to deter or discourage them making a positive change. AA and 12-Step programs... "recovery," so-to-speak, have become so culturally ingrained they are almost considered "above reproach" by many. I don't think that's wise or that the organization has earned that kind of following, particularly in light of the evidence. In fact, resistance to 12-Step programs are frequently pointed to as "evidence" the alcoholic/addict is still "in denial."

Snip

I always found it humorous that members are frequently told "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." Except, apparently, in cases of failed 12-Step Treatment (the vast majority) -- where they're advised to "Keep Coming Back!"

Just my :twocents:

Thanks for reading! :)

I can respect your opinion. You're certainly not the first to express malcontentment (or disapproval) for 12 step programs in the manner in which you have and I apologize for having to delete part of your post..I ran out of the allotted character space.

But I would say that the issues around chemical dependency is more than complex than most of us can even begin to realize.. The variables involved are as many as their are people with different levels of intelligence, creativity, religious beliefs, education backgrounds, life experiences, etc, etc, etc.

I don't want to try to defend the mantras often used in AA. Or the repetition of sayings that people use to make a statement of condition or simply an act of being or existing.

Most people who attend AA go their with a lost sense of self. They've become disconnected with their families, possibly co-workers, etc. Critical thinking has been one of their better skills for sometime. They have diminished problem solving skills, which usually impacts so many aspects of their social skills in general.

But people who find it difficult to get sober and/or clean have very skewed concepts about their dilemma. And many just want to know how to find solution that isn't as complex than their current perspectives on life, which a lot of people believe is basically hopeless. What they want is something like a "paint by the numbers" sort of solution. In other words, life is damn complicated for them and they need to see something that has a not so complex of a starting place, which at some level makes some sense to them. And where they can see some continuing path that "could possibly lead to some positive end result".

What AA (and like programs) has to offer is a paint by the number solution - which is comprised of common sense principles which has the ability to apply in some positive way for all of the various types of people who find themselves participating in the program.

Because every person's life is different, the manner in which they actively participate will not bear the same exactly outcomes for each person. That's not the intent. In fact, there is no way to mold people's minds to live their lives in a controlled like environment once they walk out of an AA meeting. No matter where people go - there they are. Their problems still exist. They aren't exempt form life's sometimes harshness and non-discriminating random acts of challenging hardships.

But, make no mistake. There is an intent involved. It's to help people, via a very rote method, to deal with life on life's terms. People need to be able to get sober or clean long enough to become teachable and to see their world and problems through different eyes (metaphorically speaking). It's like parents with children who have ADHD and they have their kids put on a medication - thinking that all their problems will go away. They don't. The meds might make it possible for kids to become teachable. But the hard work involved to get to some positive results must be viewed from two perspectives. One is providing the types of information that has the possible chance to promote positive change. The other is helping those who are in situations where learning is difficult - to actually learn.

No, AA isn't a one-size-fits-all type of solution. It is, however, the potential to be a huge stepping stone from a place of feeling terminally unique to knowing that they aren't alone, there is a other options than the one an alcoholic or addict has repeatedly used thinking they could solve their own skewed concepts of what the hell has gone wrong in their life.

We can't think ourselves into acting right. We have to act ourselves into thinking right. (Not an AA saying - but maybe it should be) ;)

Thanks, DG...
 
(Continued from previous)


I personally believe addiction is a very complex medical problem. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. I also understand the reluctance of laypeople and professionals to criticize anything that might help an alcoholic or addict, because nobody wants to deter or discourage them making a positive change. AA and 12-Step programs... "recovery," so-to-speak, have become so culturally ingrained they are almost considered "above reproach" by many. I don't think that's wise or that the organization has earned that kind of following, particularly in light of the evidence. In fact, resistance to 12-Step programs are frequently pointed to as "evidence" the alcoholic/addict is still "in denial."

Newcomers are frequently discouraged from using their own critical thinking skills when raising legitimate questions where AA is concerned, with comments like "Your best thinking got you here." "Take the cotton out of your ears, and put it in your mouth." "Let the group/your sponsor do your thinking for you." They are told failure is never the Program's fault, but the fault of the individual.

IMHO, the very nature of AA discourages the majority of people it doesn't work for from looking for more suitable alternatives. I think that's harmful, particularly to alcoholics and addicts that are likely already dealing with low self-esteem and other emotional/behavioral issues.

I always found it humorous that members are frequently told "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results." Except, apparently, in cases of failed 12-Step Treatment (the vast majority) -- where they're advised to "Keep Coming Back!"

Just my :twocents:

Thanks for reading! :)

There do seem to be a small percentage of people who are simply incapable of grasping the concepts of the 12-step programs or who never really give them a chance. The reason newbies are told to keep coming back is because that is the ONLY way they will get the program. Too many think that, okay, I understand, I've got it, and I can do this on my own. Well they can't do it on their own, they don't do it on their own, and then they blame the 12-steps or AA for failing them.

Yes, other methods have proved better for some. But that doesn't mean that AA has not helped many find happiness in sobriety. It is far more than just not drinking. It is a path to feel normal, to feel happy, to feel comfortable not drinking.

Alcoholism (and other addictions) does create intense cravings, but that is only one aspect. It also affects a person physically in many different ways. And it creates a complex spiritual tangle, a wrestling with guilt and justification and remorse and denial that invariably creates a kind of psychosis that prevents the alcoholic from either understanding what drives him or ability to see or accept the truth. Most alcoholics really do believe they can control it if they can just muster the will power. Most tell themselves just one more drink. Or I'll get through this or finish that and then I'll stop. This is coupled with those periods of denial when they feel justified in getting drunk or convince themselves they don't drink more than anybody else or everybody else is the problem so no wonder I drink. Then there is the ingenuity of how to drink more without alarming those people who are already alarmed. Especially with alcohol, the assault on brain and other bodily function is progressive and can be deadly. Those who don't succumb to other ailments exacerbated by the substance abuse will likely wind up insane. Few live to a ripe old age.

There is nothing more frustrating to the alcoholic than the other 90 percent of the people who can drink, even to excess, without becoming a problem to themselves and/or others. It is really tough for the alcoholic to finally admit that he is not one of that 90 percent.
 
There do seem to be a small percentage of people who are simply incapable of grasping the concepts of the 12-step programs or who never really give them a chance. The reason newbies are told to keep coming back is because that is the ONLY way they will get the program. Too many think that, okay, I understand, I've got it, and I can do this on my own. Well they can't do it on their own, they don't do it on their own, and then they blame the 12-steps or AA for failing them.

Yes, other methods have proved better for some. But that doesn't mean that AA has not helped many find happiness in sobriety. It is far more than just not drinking. It is a path to feel normal, to feel happy, to feel comfortable not drinking.

Alcoholism (and other addictions) does create intense cravings, but that is only one aspect. It also affects a person physically in many different ways. And it creates a complex spiritual tangle, a wrestling with guilt and justification and remorse and denial that invariably creates a kind of psychosis that prevents the alcoholic from either understanding what drives him or ability to see or accept the truth. Most alcoholics really do believe they can control it if they can just muster the will power. Most tell themselves just one more drink. Or I'll get through this or finish that and then I'll stop. This is coupled with those periods of denial when they feel justified in getting drunk or convince themselves they don't drink more than anybody else or everybody else is the problem so no wonder I drink. Then there is the ingenuity of how to drink more without alarming those people who are already alarmed. Especially with alcohol, the assault on brain and other bodily function is progressive and can be deadly. Those who don't succumb to other ailments exacerbated by the substance abuse will likely wind up insane. Few live to a ripe old age.

There is nothing more frustrating to the alcoholic than the other 90 percent of the people who can drink, even to excess, without becoming a problem to themselves and/or others. It is really tough for the alcoholic to finally admit that he is not one of that 90 percent.

Even after 29 years of sobriety I'm not exempt from feeling ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

But I'm truly grateful that I am constitutionally capable of being honest with myself. I can't drink alcohol. PERIOD! When I do drink my life becomes more than unmanageable, not only for me, but for everybody in my life.

I can closely predict what the outcome of my behaviors will be if I chug down a 6 pack of Coke. I can't predict the outcome of my behaviors if I chug down a 6 pack of beer. And yet I can buy both of these things at many of the same retail places. And if I buy the 6 pack of beer, my unpredictable behaviors can very much become an serious issue for everybody within my path. :lol:

Thanks...
 
Even after 29 years of sobriety I'm not exempt from feeling ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

But I'm truly grateful that I am constitutionally capable of being honest with myself. I can't drink alcohol. PERIOD! When I do drink my life becomes more than unmanageable, not only for me, but for everybody in my life.

I can closely predict what the outcome of my behaviors will be if I chug down a 6 pack of Coke. I can't predict the outcome of my behaviors if I chug down a 6 pack of beer. And yet I can buy both of these things at many of the same retail places. And if I buy the 6 pack of beer, my unpredictable behaviors can very much become an serious issue for everybody within my path. :lol:

Thanks...

Congratulations on 29 years though and for being in inspiration to others that it can be done. I am not alcoholic, but with my family history and thinking back on my own behavior as I married an alcoholic and am an ACOA, I am pretty darn sure I was a very short distance from that invisible line. And I almost surely at some point would have stepped over it had I not quit in solidarity with my loved one who was starting on the path to sobriety. (We both have 32 years of sobriety now. :) And like you said, the old tapes sometimes start running, the old demons sometimes rear their ugly heads, but we learn to understand what they are, and they usually quickly pass. We both very much know there are no guarantees and after all this time, sobriety is a one-day-at-a-time process. Though in all honesty, we don't think about it all that much any more.
 
Congratulations on 29 years though and for being in inspiration to others that it can be done. I am not alcoholic, but with my family history and thinking back on my own behavior as I married an alcoholic and am an ACOA, I am pretty darn sure I was a very short distance from that invisible line. And I almost surely at some point would have stepped over it had I not quit in solidarity with my loved one who was starting on the path to sobriety. (We both have 32 years of sobriety now. :) And like you said, the old tapes sometimes start running, the old demons sometimes rear their ugly heads, but we learn to understand what they are, and they usually quickly pass. We both very much know there are no guarantees and after all this time, sobriety is a one-day-at-a-time process. Though in all honesty, we don't think about it all that much any more.

Congrats to you both...and touche.

As I said in a prior post. I haven't quit drinking per se...I just choose not to drink today. And I've been making that choice every day for 29 years.

But to be honest with you. I think being a drunk is much easier (emotionally) than being an Al-Alnon. That is a tough job.:lol: No mental escapes... ;) Take it on the chin. That takes balls and being a bit crazy if you get what I mean.

Good on you guys..seriously. My wife is also a member of your side.
 
Congrats to you both...and touche.

As I said in a prior post. I haven't quit drinking per se...I just choose not to drink today. And I've been making that choice every day for 29 years.

But to be honest with you. I think being a drunk is much easier (emotionally) than being an Al-Alnon. That is a tough job.:lol: No mental escapes... ;) Take it on the chin. That takes balls and being a bit crazy if you get what I mean.

Good on you guys..seriously. My wife is also a member of your side.

LOL. I don't think it's tougher. It's just maybe harder to nail down some of the specifics. And you don't get the perks like the birthdays and congratulations and acknowledgement for so many days like you get in AA.

In many ways the Al-Anons are in more denial than the alcoholics they love. And real honesty may be a bit tougher to come by. The worst thing the Al-Anon usually has to contend with is all those weeks, months, years, that she manipulated, lied, cajoled, and otherwise did everything in her power to control her loved one's drinking, and then when he finally got sober? Somebody else got the credit for that. :)
 
LOL. I don't think it's tougher. It's just maybe harder to nail down some of the specifics. And you don't get the perks like the birthdays and congratulations and acknowledgement for so many days like you get in AA.

In many ways the Al-Anons are in more denial than the alcoholics they love. And real honesty may be a bit tougher to come by. The worst thing the Al-Anon usually has to contend with is all those weeks, months, years, that she manipulated, lied, cajoled, and otherwise did everything in her power to control her loved one's drinking, and then when he finally got sober? Somebody else got the credit for that. :)

:lamo I love that ^^^^^^. Thanks for this post...it's great!
 
Thanks. I got that insight the hard way. :)
Hard way or easy way, you got it - some don't get it ANY way, and they (sadly) suffer for it (or worse).

Good for you!
 
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