View Poll Results: Up or Down?

Voters
45. You may not vote on this poll
  • Thumbs Up

    31 68.89%
  • Thumbs Down

    14 31.11%
Page 8 of 34 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 334

Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #71
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    court ordered AA will never work.
    As a psychotherapist, I have worked with addicts for 25 years. I cannot remember one time where an addict choose to get help without some form of consequences or order.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #72
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    You would think at some point in 30 years they would become strong enough to live their lives without the crutch.
    It's no crutch. It's assistance for a fairly significant disorder.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #73
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Just as it is not your place to judge whether those people you say were helped by AA could not have gotten better without it.

    I was a drug addict (crack cocaine - quit in 2002) and I cleaned up on my own (I went to CA meetings - AA's sister organization - and they were worse then useless for me). It is the only way to truly quit.

    If the only reason you quit something is because some group or organization helped you quit and you continue to use that organization...then does that mean that if that group ceases to exist that you will fall off the wagon? Then you have not truly quit.

    Quitting means you do so AND maintain that sobriety ON YOUR OWN. If you need an outside entity (organization, methadone, etc.) to stay sober/clean...then you have not quit. You are just in remission. And you have replaced one addiction with a different one.

    And that means that you have not come to grips with the underlying reasons for your addiction. Instead of learning to walk, you use a crutch.

    So these people that you know that still go to AA meetings have not quit...they are just addicts in remission.


    I looked at my life, looked at myself, realized what I was doing and why and decided to quit...on my own. It is the only way you can ever be close to certain that you are truly free.


    Now, if those programs keep these people sober...fine. But I have been to those meetings. And I know that those organizations AA/CA ARE Christian recruitment groups...period. And that is my problem with AA/CA. That they prey on people's weaknesses to get people into the God-club.

    There is no reason that an organization that does not have a Christian agenda could not do the same thing.


    And to those that say they 'need' these organizations? I say that you have not looked at yourself hard enough if you say that. Because the reason you do these things is within you. And until you understand that reason, you will never truly be free of your addiction.
    Unfortunately, addicts usually like the easy way out (no insult intended - I did/do it too), so doing something as long and hard as true self-analyzation is not something that comes easy to addicted people. Escaping is their thing, not self-reflecting.
    You obviously don't understand the concept of AA, of recovery, or of addiction. You didn't "quit". No one does. It's not a crutch. It assistance to remain in recovery from a serious disorder.

    And as far as it being a "Christian recruitment" group, the only folks I've ever heard who've said that are militant atheists who really don't understand AA. The "higher power" doesn't have to mean a deity. I can give several examples of people who I knew who used something completely different as their "higher power". AA often gets criticized for using "God", but there are meetings that omit the higher power from it's literature.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #74
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrider View Post
    Hi CC,

    I respect what you do for a living and (being that you are arguably the most intelligent person here on the forum) I'm not going to try to dispute anything you post. I respect you too much for that - it's that simple.

    I do (before signing off for the day) want to tell you how I'm doing and what I'm doing these days to get better:

    1) My meds have been significantly reduced - I'm almost off them entirely. The more I tap into my inner "God," - instead of believing that God exists apart from my soul (hence, duality - please read what I posted about that in this thread) - the more I get better.

    2) All of my doctors are on board with me and support my attitude of AA.

    3) They *my doctors, that is* see no evidence of any form of psychosis or even neurosis - and haven't for a long time (years, that is).

    4) I intend to write a book on my experiences and my a couple of my doctors have agreed to write the introduction.

    Lastly, thanks for all you do to help others - I admire you and all your posts on this forum (sometimes - especially the posts I least agree with you on).

    I wish you the best - may the wind be always at your back on fair and calm seas.

    Out.
    I am very happy to hear you are doing better. From my experience, there are two kinds of AA meetings. The first are the dogmatic with no flexibility and with many punishing rules. The second are more flexible and understand that "not one size fits all" even when it comes to addicts. Currently in my caseload. I am treating several clients with depression. Under no circumstances to I treat them using the same techniques and types of psychotherapy. These are people, not examples in a textbook. Not all AA meetings are the dogmatic ones that some folks are describing. If I hear a client describe their experience at a meeting like that, I tell them to try a different meeting. An AA meeting that tells it's members that they can't take meds is a meeting to be avoided, for example.

    AA doesn't work for everyone. It is neither the only roadmap for success from addiction, nor is it a crutch or a preventative for recovery.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #75
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    I have 29 plus years of sobriety, which would not have happened without AA.

    Although I'm retired, I am a degreed, credentialed professional who has significant hours of study in the field of chemical dependency. I've spent some of my professional years working with kids who had significant problems associated with dependency issues - and many of them participated with one or more parent who also had alcohol/drug addictions.

    Oddly enough, a lot of people who are plague with a dual diagnosis (mental disabilities/illnesses along with alcohol/drug dependencies) have substantially benefited by AA.

    Thanks...





    Thanks....
    I don't do a lot of chemical dependency therapy anymore, but working almost primarily with teenagers, dual diagnoses invariably occur. Thanks for what you shared and for helping those that you have.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #76
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrider View Post
    I apologize for this, to any that were offended. I'm in no way a "Vader." LS was always my favorite - at least when I was a little kid. But I wasn't in a great mood last night, so I understand anyone whom didn't appreciate the post below. Thanks to all who responded in this thread - I guess if AA works for a lot of people, it can't be that bad. Where I went to meetings in Miami as a 20 year old, there were a lot of sexual predators in those meetings (but, was it "real" AA? - perhaps another topic) - won't go into detail as to why I hated those people, but one can probably read between the lines what I'm saying.

    Anyway, I apologize to all recovering Alcoholics for what I've said in this thread - and to the people whom still actively drink. AA isn't for everyone, but it can help.

    Thanks for reading.
    "Reading between the lines" that was AWFUL for you. That is an excellent example of AA meetings to avoid at all costs, and I can understand your feelings towards AA. Not all meetings are like that. But this does bring up one of AA's failings. No real centralized management. I understand why... anonymity and all. But it does make it difficult to weed out the bad apples.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #77
    Sage

    Peter King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:01 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    12,107

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    As a psychotherapist, I have worked with addicts for 25 years. I cannot remember one time where an addict choose to get help without some form of consequences or order.
    Know you have met me. I was mentally rock bottom and that caused me to accept help and work towards my beating my addiction.

    And I am not talking about drugs, I am talking purely about alcohol and gambling. With drugs there is a need for consequences or order because there is so much of a chemical need to force someone to accept help in drugs that is much less prevalent in gambling and alcohol. At least that is my opinion.
    the First Amendment gives everyone “the right to be very critical of a Petty, handicapped mocking, unbalanced, whiny so-called President and criticize him strongly.”

  8. #78
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo
    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    142,006

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Know you have met me. I was mentally rock bottom and that caused me to accept help and work towards my beating my addiction.

    And I am not talking about drugs, I am talking purely about alcohol and gambling. With drugs there is a need for consequences or order because there is so much of a chemical need to force someone to accept help in drugs that is much less prevalent in gambling and alcohol. At least that is my opinion.
    My guess is that your rock bottom yielded consequences. Perhaps you were going to lose your house... or your job... or your wife... or your family... or were going to go to jail... or your health... or something else. Without the threat of consequences, there would be no reason to stop.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #79
    Sage
    Chomsky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Third Coast
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,198

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    In general I agree. But AA has become the "go to" group for legal stuff.

    By this I mean - a friend of a friend had drinking problems. Bad. She lost her license to do physical therapy. She sobered up; was sober for a couple years; applied to get her license back. She was told she'd have to attend AA meetings daily for 90 days. (She also was on the hook to call in every day to see if she needed to give a pee test - which in our rural community meant she had to travel at least an hour each way, which would not have made it easy to get a job. There was some other stuff too)

    But seriously? 90 AA meetings in 90 days? what does that prove?

    She ended up just giving up on physical therapy - which she was good at - and looking for other work -which she hasn't found yet.
    To lose her PT license due to alcohol, and need 90 meetings to get it back doesn't sound like that bad a deal. Around here PT is a pretty decent occupation paying reasonably well with good working conditions, and it pays especially well for an indie in home-healthcare if they build-up a decent clientele - I know several PTs doing just that.

    To walk away from one's profession and remain unemployed in lieu of 90 days of meetings, sounds a bit short-sighted to me.

    I suspect your friend might have a bit more going on here, like she's still drinking or having issues coming to grip with paying the price for her mistakes. Or even perhaps she is addicted and is caught-up in 'addiction thinking', interfering with her decision processes.

  10. #80
    Educator
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Brum
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    776

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am very happy to hear you are doing better. From my experience, there are two kinds of AA meetings. The first are the dogmatic with no flexibility and with many punishing rules. The second are more flexible and understand that "not one size fits all" even when it comes to addicts. Currently in my caseload. I am treating several clients with depression. Under no circumstances to I treat them using the same techniques and types of psychotherapy. These are people, not examples in a textbook. Not all AA meetings are the dogmatic ones that some folks are describing. If I hear a client describe their experience at a meeting like that, I tell them to try a different meeting. An AA meeting that tells it's members that they can't take meds is a meeting to be avoided, for example.

    AA doesn't work for everyone. It is neither the only roadmap for success from addiction, nor is it a crutch or a preventative for recovery.
    This is an interesting thread. I've attended some 12 step meetings in the UK (though not AA) and read some AA material. I like the spontaneous origins of it and the genuine desire of fellow addicts to muddle through and help each other. Just telling and hearing stories of sobriety alone can be amazingly inspiring, even to non-addicts. As psychotherapy has become more specialised, I guess that specialists have had more insight into the dynamics of 12 step groups and I can see a lot of benefit in a twin approach of psychotherapy and 12 step meetings.

    In my limited experience, I felt that many members were slavish in their check-in phone calls, revealed too much about their lives too quickly, and the process of reckoning-up to the past (is that stage 4?) seemed to be interminable and over-scrupulous. I didn't get a good feeling that these people were really making progress, but more that they were stuck in a loop and that the whole group had some boundary issues (me too).

    My conclusion is that people with fragile personalities will find it harder to get the best from 12 step meetings and avoid these pitfalls without the balance that a good therapist can bring. I think people are a lot more fragile in 2015 then when the founders of AA started up, and this needs to be reflected in the structure.

    But to finish on a positive note, the big problem that addicts have is that they tried to deal with their problems on their own, and so swing from extreme independence to extreme dependence (on whatever substance). Good group support is about creating interdependence but over-dependence on the group along the way is almost inevitable to some degree.

Page 8 of 34 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •