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Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #41
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Good.
    Which speaks volumes about you.


    Good day.
    'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
    'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
    "Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."

  2. #42
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Which speaks volumes about you.


    Good day.
    Not even close.

    You say you were an addict.

    Why did you pick up the pipe in the first place?

    I have no sympathy for people that wasted their lives with mind altering drugs. No they are not the good people.

  3. #43
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrider View Post
    Some interesting replies in this thread. One thing I have a problem with is AA's insistence that one needs a "higher power" in order to get better. From my experience, a lot of AA's indeed make AA itself their higher power - hence, that's where the word cult comes into play.

    I was one of those that made AA my higher power - it was the most screwed up thing I ever did. It's taken me nearly 20 years to undo the damage that AA did to me.

    Look, the bible says this: "God created man in his image." What that means is that I (as are all humans) am God. The bible goes on to say, "There is no God but me." That is I, the soul of the individual. "Be still and know that I am God." Again, the same point.

    Duality (the belief that there is a God or power apart from the soul of the individual) is the only devil, from my experience. AA teaches anything but that.

    From AA's perspective (as well as Christianity's), I am a "heathen" of sorts - an agnostic or even an atheist from their perspective. Little do they know, their lack of understanding where "God" is really found makes them ignorant, if not stupid.

    I haven't been drunk in over 20 years. I drink occasionally, but only in moderation. That's another thing AA says that I would not be able to do - MEANWHILE, the ones whom told me that (including most of my former sponsors) are pushing up daises.

    Less that 1% of the people whom go to AA end up staying "sober" for the rest of their lives - I would hardly call that a successful program.

    Congrats on staying sober for all that time.

    And good for you for telling it like it is at your AA meeting.

    And thanks for starting this thread.
    Last edited by DA60; 05-02-15 at 12:09 PM.
    'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
    'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
    "Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."

  4. #44
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Everything is relative, and knowing all too much about AA I don't they'd care if somebody said "I think AA is crap and got clean without them." The fact is that, for addiction, nothing works. Once a person gets physically addicted to alcohol, it's a different beast, one that I'm glad I never had to deal with. OP, did you get to the point where you had to drink or you'd become delirious? I'll bet my rep points you didn't. The biggest problem is that we never get the full and true story. I know people who say they're addicts and it seems totally untrue and I've known people who say they aren't addicts and clearly are. People say they got clean without AA and are simultaneously having a few drinks (it's not hard liquor so it doesn't count you know) and people in AA who are drunk at meetings and preaching about how they have all the answers.

    Nobody has the answers. In the future, we'll probably have a pill that addicts will take and they will magically feel great without their drug of choice. For now, nothing works. AA doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Rehab doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Somebody above said that methadone is just a crutch. Well, methadone has the highest success rate of any treatment plan we currently have for heroin addicts. So instead of slamming somebody who's taking methadone, you should be praising them for choosing the option that has the highest success rate. I know that person said it in a nice way, but even if a person chooses AA or NA, so what? Great. People are trying to help themselves. They're not a cult if they don't care whether or not you join and there is no central figure capitalizing from it. I know they're not the best think in the world but I won't publicly condemn them on a forum where people might need help and will start disliking an organization that could have otherwise helped them. It's all relative.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Everything is relative, and knowing all too much about AA I don't they'd care if somebody said "I think AA is crap and got clean without them." The fact is that, for addiction, nothing works. Once a person gets physically addicted to alcohol, it's a different beast, one that I'm glad I never had to deal with. OP, did you get to the point where you had to drink or you'd become delirious? I'll bet my rep points you didn't. The biggest problem is that we never get the full and true story. I know people who say they're addicts and it seems totally untrue and I've known people who say they aren't addicts and clearly are. People say they got clean without AA and are simultaneously having a few drinks (it's not hard liquor so it doesn't count you know) and people in AA who are drunk at meetings and preaching about how they have all the answers.

    Nobody has the answers. In the future, we'll probably have a pill that addicts will take and they will magically feel great without their drug of choice. For now, nothing works. AA doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Rehab doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Somebody above said that methadone is just a crutch. Well, methadone has the highest success rate of any treatment plan we currently have for heroin addicts. So instead of slamming somebody who's taking methadone, you should be praising them for choosing the option that has the highest success rate. I know that person said it in a nice way, but even if a person chooses AA or NA, so what? Great. People are trying to help themselves. They're not a cult if they don't care whether or not you join and there is no central figure capitalizing from it. I know they're not the best think in the world but I won't publicly condemn them on a forum where people might need help and will start disliking an organization that could have otherwise helped them. It's all relative.
    Try reading what I typed again, please.

    I did not 'slam' anyone for taking methadone. I simply stated that they have not fully quit heroin if they are still using methadone.

    And it is a crutch. If the only reason you do not use heroin is because of methadone, then methadone IS a crutch to you.

    That does not mean the crutch is bad...but it IS a crutch. I simply called it what it is.

    Hey, I am glad the 'crutch' exists.

    Btw I have known people that quit heroin without methadone. It can be done. I am not saying it is easy...but it can be done.
    Last edited by DA60; 05-02-15 at 12:45 PM.
    'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
    'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
    "Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."

  6. #46
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Why no middle ground on the poll? Where are some "there are good things and not-so-good things about AA" options?
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." --First Amendment to the United States Constitution

  7. #47
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    Everything is relative, and knowing all too much about AA I don't they'd care if somebody said "I think AA is crap and got clean without them." The fact is that, for addiction, nothing works. Once a person gets physically addicted to alcohol, it's a different beast, one that I'm glad I never had to deal with. OP, did you get to the point where you had to drink or you'd become delirious? I'll bet my rep points you didn't. The biggest problem is that we never get the full and true story. I know people who say they're addicts and it seems totally untrue and I've known people who say they aren't addicts and clearly are. People say they got clean without AA and are simultaneously having a few drinks (it's not hard liquor so it doesn't count you know) and people in AA who are drunk at meetings and preaching about how they have all the answers.

    Nobody has the answers. In the future, we'll probably have a pill that addicts will take and they will magically feel great without their drug of choice. For now, nothing works. AA doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Rehab doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Somebody above said that methadone is just a crutch. Well, methadone has the highest success rate of any treatment plan we currently have for heroin addicts. So instead of slamming somebody who's taking methadone, you should be praising them for choosing the option that has the highest success rate. I know that person said it in a nice way, but even if a person chooses AA or NA, so what? Great. People are trying to help themselves. They're not a cult if they don't care whether or not you join and there is no central figure capitalizing from it. I know they're not the best think in the world but I won't publicly condemn them on a forum where people might need help and will start disliking an organization that could have otherwise helped them. It's all relative.
    Being that I was delirious (read: crazy) for every day "sober" in those 4 years I went to AA meetings, I would have to answer yes and no (I know that won't really satisfy you - but my situation was/is complicated and don't feel like 'splaining).

    My "condition" was/is not alcoholism, however. Drinking helped, but I've never been officially diagnosed "alcoholic." But (according to AA folks) I indeed was.

    Look, I take meds (some people call them drugs) prescribed by a doctor. AA said I didn't need meds, that I "simply lacked the capacity to be honest with myself" and could get off my meds if I thoroughly worked the steps (which would be a very dangerous thing, indeed) - another problem I have with AA.

    Frankly, I'm lucky to be alive - had I continued to go to AA and adopt their dogma, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd be dead.

    "Raising the bottom" is a tactic used by AA to get young (potential "alcoholics") to attend and stay. That is exactly what they did with me.

    So no, I'm not a "true alcoholic." However, until I got on meds at 23 and stayed on them, I was in fact delirious.

  8. #48
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This post is an excellent example of the exception proves the rule fallacy.

    I know tons of people who have gone through AA and are alive, clean, and happy and many have been for long periods of time... decades. I've also know plenty who rejected AA. Many of them are dead or in jail. AA has been shown to work, but as substance abuse is a very difficult ILLNESS to treat, relapse happens regardless of treatment. Oh, and as a psychotherapist. I send MANY people to AA, and most have very positive experiences there, and remaining in the program is a good indication of success in recovery.

    I'm glad that you are doing well. But how you've gotten to where you are has ZERO to do with how anyone else, does. You want to condemn AA because it didn't work for you, that's all well and good. But it is not your place to judge whether it works for anyone else. Of that, you are have no knowledge. And you seem to have very little understanding of the addictive process, either
    Hi CC,

    I respect what you do for a living and (being that you are arguably the most intelligent person here on the forum) I'm not going to try to dispute anything you post. I respect you too much for that - it's that simple.

    I do (before signing off for the day) want to tell you how I'm doing and what I'm doing these days to get better:

    1) My meds have been significantly reduced - I'm almost off them entirely. The more I tap into my inner "God," - instead of believing that God exists apart from my soul (hence, duality - please read what I posted about that in this thread) - the more I get better.

    2) All of my doctors are on board with me and support my attitude of AA.

    3) They *my doctors, that is* see no evidence of any form of psychosis or even neurosis - and haven't for a long time (years, that is).

    4) I intend to write a book on my experiences and my a couple of my doctors have agreed to write the introduction.

    Lastly, thanks for all you do to help others - I admire you and all your posts on this forum (sometimes - especially the posts I least agree with you on).

    I wish you the best - may the wind be always at your back on fair and calm seas.

    Out.

  9. #49
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelgangirl View Post
    Most of the "new recruits" are young and court ordered. Typical college age-- reckless mistake-- but brainwashed to believe "they have a disease" that is "lifelong!"

    Talk about job security...

    AA/NA do at least as much harm as they do "good."
    Sounds like they messed you up.
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    You have no empirical evidence backing up your false assertion. You are simply conjecturing based on a whim...
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    Or maybe "We now understand why women provoke men into hitting them".
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  10. #50
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This post is an excellent example of the exception proves the rule fallacy.

    I know tons of people who have gone through AA and are alive, clean, and happy and many have been for long periods of time... decades. I've also know plenty who rejected AA. Many of them are dead or in jail. AA has been shown to work, but as substance abuse is a very difficult ILLNESS to treat, relapse happens regardless of treatment. Oh, and as a psychotherapist. I send MANY people to AA, and most have very positive experiences there, and remaining in the program is a good indication of success in recovery.

    I'm glad that you are doing well. But how you've gotten to where you are has ZERO to do with how anyone else, does. You want to condemn AA because it didn't work for you, that's all well and good. But it is not your place to judge whether it works for anyone else. Of that, you are have no knowledge. And you seem to have very little understanding of the addictive process, either
    I have 29 plus years of sobriety, which would not have happened without AA.

    Although I'm retired, I am a degreed, credentialed professional who has significant hours of study in the field of chemical dependency. I've spent some of my professional years working with kids who had significant problems associated with dependency issues - and many of them participated with one or more parent who also had alcohol/drug addictions.

    Oddly enough, a lot of people who are plague with a dual diagnosis (mental disabilities/illnesses along with alcohol/drug dependencies) have substantially benefited by AA.

    Thanks...





    Thanks....

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