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Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #311
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You don't have to be a theist to join. Not at all. Plenty of atheists are members of AA... including some members who have admitted as such in this very thread.
    What happens if you don't recognise that there is such a thing as a 'higher power'? Just askin'.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    That's great and feel free to PM me if you ever want advice or to vent about something or whatever. That goes for anybody else reading this thread. There are certain things I don't really talk about, but what I have said in several threads is that I have an auto immune disease which causes chronic pain (I have stories that would freak people out soooo hard). How that relates to a thread about recovery? You can probably draw that conclusion yourself.

    People on both sides of the AA debate love to quarrel about whether or not addiction is a disease. I would tend to believe the 99% of experts who say it is, but I also think it doesn't matter and it's semantics. There's this idea that if you call it a disease it means that you're claiming that you are absolving yourself from responsibility. Well, I have this stupid disease (the auto immune one) and just because it isn't my fault doesn't seem to matter at all. I have a responsibility to myself to treat it the best way I can, because I cannot fully contribute to society if I leave my disease untreated. I'm just saying this because so many people attack AA for accepting that addiction is a disease. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter. You don't need to know where you are to find your way out of the woods. The moar u know
    Thanks, Mustachio.

    Will do on the pm's - and there is loads of wisdom in that small post of yours. I like what you say about finding my way out of the woods - am going to clip that little saying and put it on my bedroom wall, so I don't forget.

    Thanks again, my friend.

  3. #313
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL. Got any cites for successful gay "conversions?"
    People Can Change: Our Stories of Change

    Yeah, you don't have a clue how AA works or about addiction, that much is clear. And if a person in AA stands up and says, "Woe is me, I'm a victim, I have to drink" you'll get exactly zero heads nodding in agreement.
    "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent" - AA Big Book

    About Step 1 of the 12 Step Program


    That's not generally true, and to the extent it may be the case for some individuals, it's no different than any religion where people go sometimes two or three times a week, pray over every single meal, for an entire lifetime! Oh, the horror of that??

    Second, even if we accept your (mostly false) premise, that's a fantastic trade for the individual and for that person's family, friends, employer and society as a whole.
    It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.

  4. #314
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.

    "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent" - AA Big Book

    About Step 1 of the 12 Step Program
    That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

    Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people - sent me to the ER twice. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.

    It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.
    Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

    And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.

    Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.
    Last edited by JasperL; 05-14-15 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.
    Let me just say that I don't care that people don't like AA. Frankly I wish the health care profession would take the problem more seriously and develop alternatives to AA, or medical approaches to be used in conjunction with AA. I read an interesting book called "Seven Weeks to Sobriety" by Larson that influenced how I approached the problem, and I followed a lot of her advice related to the physiological factors underlying alcoholism and the related depression associated with it and getting off intoxicants, and I believe it helped me. I'd love for that approach to be properly evaluated and then adopted more broadly if it was shown to work. Someone else has mentioned the drug approach used on parts of Europe. If they work, fantastic.

    Point is I don't believe AA is the only way, or even the best way for many people, but I don't understand the need to mischaracterize what AA is to condemn it. At it's core it's really just a group of people with a common problem seeking solutions getting together trying to help each other live better lives, clean and sober. It's not that complicated. And the meetings vary tremendously, as do the groups and the people in them, as you'd expect when you have thousands of gatherings per day all across the country and the world. The meetings and therefore "AA" is, more or less, what the people in those mostly very small groups want "AA" to be. The AA program provides some structure, but stereotyping AA groups is as futile as trying to lump all religions that use some or all of the old and new Testament of the Bible into one homogenous group.

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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.
    I can, you acted like you wanted specific stores rather than overall success rate.

    Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent.
    The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction - Salon.com

    success rates for these therapies range from 11% (complete change in females) to 37%(complete change in males (Spitzer, 2003)
    http://www.jpsych.com/pdfs/Spitzer,%202003.pdf

    That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

    Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.
    No, they come to AA for help and AA turns them into a victim


    Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

    And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.

    Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.
    Its only true if you let it be true, lack of self responsibility is why people end up in AA to begin with and then AA reinforces that.

  7. #317
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    I can, you acted like you wanted specific stores rather than overall success rate.

    http://www.jpsych.com/pdfs/Spitzer,%202003.pdf
    The author of that study has repudiated his own study, and it's been ridiculed and debunked over and over because of many major holes in the study itself and how propagandists deliberately misinterpret the findings, like you did here. Got anything else?

    BTW, I tried to find your quote in the paper itself. I suspect it is a mischaracterization of the paper's results, as is typical with this study. But I might be wrong, so on what page can I find that quote?

    No, they come to AA for help and AA turns them into a victim
    Really, I'm a victim? Of what? I'm pretty content, actually. Sober for quite a few years, healthy, happy, etc. So if this is what it feels like to be a 'victim,' I highly recommend being a victim of AA!!

    Its only true if you let it be true, lack of self responsibility is why people end up in AA to begin with and then AA reinforces that.
    I guess you're not an alcoholic? Or maybe you don't believe there is such a thing? Not sure.

    Sure, obviously we can all decide whether or not to drink one beer or 50 in a week. Each sip is a conscious act. But that misses the entire point of addiction. For whatever reason, and physiology and genes play a role, a small segment of the population cannot successfully drink in moderation. Responsible people admit that and quit trying, and avoid all alcohol intake.

    I don't know what your point is, really, but unless you're an alcoholic I don't think you can understand, and you're clearly unwilling to take the word of others.
    Last edited by JasperL; 05-14-15 at 11:49 AM.

  8. #318
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Skywalker View Post
    14th day sober, for me, that is.

    I won another copy of the 12 & 12 last night at a meeting - this time, I kept it, because I didn't have it and the group wanted me to have it.

    Going to go read it right now, as I am having a little insomnia and need to read something to help me sleep (my sponsor suggests reading AA literature late at night, if one is tossing and turning) - g'night.
    I wish you good luck and strength.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #319
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    This is a great attempt to appeal to feel goodery gibberish. Feel goodery that I understand. Of course we want people who have addictions to overcome them, and we certainly don't want to put them down for doing so. But the truth is, people who have harmful addictions, have them for a reason. That is because they have an inability to deal with reality. Whatever their situation may be, they find that their addiction gives them respite from dealing with it.
    What? People are addicted to smoking (nicotine), caffeine, They have a chemical affect on the body that that is real, however people dont smoke or drink coffee to 'escape reality.' People become addicted to some prescription drugs they take for pain. They 'need' to keep taking them not for a high or to escape reality, but because their body reacts to the chemical dependency and causes pain and cravings and other issues.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #320
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.



    That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

    Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people - sent me to the ER twice. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.



    Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

    And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.



    Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.

    This view of moderation is outdated.

    The founder of Moderation Management, Audrey Kushline, got out of MM, and was pursuing SOBRIETY based on AA when that accident occurred.

    Tell the truth.

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