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Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #261
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I guess we will just have to leave it there then. I really have nothing more to put forth without repeating myself. I think the programs curriculum speaks for itself. Any non biased, logical person would see that it is heavily religious in nature. Trying to make it less obvious by saying... "ok ok guys, from now on, we will say higher power instead of god", will only convince those who again, are weak minded. But we are not really surprised that the religious be less then genuine when they make their claims of being benign. All one has to do is take a quick look at history to see how conniving and cleaver they can be to those who are not capable of seeing thru it.
    Yes, yes, militant atheists whenever they see the word "God" have their hysterics. Any non-biased, logical person would understand that one has to look deeper into an issue to really understand it. Higher power is just that. It can be God, but it doesn't have to be. It's the weak-minded who can't look beyond the word or phrase to understand it's meaning. There will always be people who will attack what they don't understand.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #262
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Tons of mental gymnastics, do you even know the roots from which AA was born?

    Alcoholics Anonymous History: Dick B.’s AA History & Bible Roots

    All the pages I have visited clearly state that AA was born out of religious doctorine. Making it more palatable by toning down the religious overtones and wording does not make it any less religious.
    How it was born and what it is now are two different things. Giving options to having it have religious overtones or not certainly makes it less religious. You are basing your opinions on your own apparent anti-religious biases.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #263
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    11th day sober, it is for me, guys.

    May have found a new, really cool sponsor - will keep you guys posted.

    Am substituting God for "Group of Drunks" - is working great, for me (that concept, that is).

    Feel an abundance of love for humanity and myself as well these days - am coming real close to surrendering, as they say in AA (everyone whom has a significant amount of time in AA knows what "surrender" means).

    Have to be to work at noon - music store. Will keep you guys posted on that, as well.

    Have a nice day, everyone!

    And remember: "This is GOD (Group of Drunks). I (we) are going to be taking care of all your problems today, so have a super fantastic day (and be happy)!"

    Thanks.

  4. #264
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    This is a great attempt to appeal to feel goodery gibberish. Feel goodery that I understand. Of course we want people who have addictions to overcome them, and we certainly don't want to put them down for doing so. But the truth is, people who have harmful addictions, have them for a reason. That is because they have an inability to deal with reality. Whatever their situation may be, they find that their addiction gives them respite from dealing with it.
    That's a very simplistic and ignorant view of addiction to alcohol. People generally drink to get high, but the difference between Joe who drinks regularly and Sue who drinks regularly, and Joe who becomes alcoholic simply isn't simply that Joe has less ability to deal with alcohol. Every study I've seen indicates genes have a big role in determining who does and doesn't become addicted. If you want to cite studies that show otherwise, please do so.

    This is nothing to be necessarily ashamed of, but what AA tries to do is replace alcohol with a religious, cultish doma. Just look at the 12 steps and tell me that they are not religious in nature. The 2nd step alone tells you all you need to know. "Come to believe that a power greater then ourselves could restore us to sanity". Alcoholics Anonymous : Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
    I doubt if you've spent any time actually in AA meetings. There is for some people a religious element to AA. But it's not (in my experience) a religious atmosphere, and it's certainly not cultish. At its core, AA is a support group. And as I've mentioned, there are perhaps 30 different AA groups in my area, and they all have different personalities and focuses. If you want to generalize and stereotype the groups, it's just evidence you don't have any idea how AA actually works in real life.

    Trying to insert religious dogma into a program that is suppose to be helping these people is simply disgusting in my view. It is kind of the same tactic many Christian organizations use when they are handing out rice to starving kids in Africa and include a bible along with the aid.
    Comparing starving people's receipt of food, to what is voluntary participation in a support group, is ridiculous. And what religious dogma is being forced on others in AA? A non-binding suggestion to rely on a higher power of your choice?

    That is why I look at AA as help for the weak minded.
    That's a non sequitur.

    Instead of dealing with the reality of their situations, and speaking frankly about it, they are taught to relinquish themsleves to a higher power in order to become "saved" from the evils of alcohol.
    Speaking frankly about addiction IS what AA is all about. More than anything, being brutally honest about yourself, your role in creating your own problems, and how you can address your problems, without regard to what else is going on in your life, is the AA program. You clearly don't have the faintest idea about how it's supposed to work.

    When in reality, its not the alcohol that is the problem.
    There is no "THE" problem. But for an addicted person, no other problem can be solved until the person gets off the addicting substance and can successfully stay off it. So if any problem is primary, it's obviously the addicting substance.

    The steps are in fact ONE way to address all the other problems that contribute to alcohol use. Look at steps 5-10. Alcohol isn't mentioned. So you say 'it's not the alcohol that is the problem' but are apparently clueless that AA recognizes that rather explicitly by focusing most of the steps on problems other than...alcohol!

    I think AA programs should be completely dismantled on the grounds that they are religious organizations which are completely illegally funded by the government.
    Another non sequitur.

    Groups are locally organized by small groups of individuals, and funded entirely by the voluntary and optional donations of those attending. Government literally has NO role in them.

  5. #265
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    This is an interesting article about AA. It states; "Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. That is, about one of every fifteen people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober." So not only is it cultish and religious in nature, it is also ineffective. If I took my car to a mechanic 10 times to get it fixed and he fixed it on the 10th time, I would be looking for another mechanic. I would not be funneling him business and money like our government funnels business and money to AA programs across the country. If my kid came home from school and got a passing grade for getting 1 out of 10 questions correct, I would pull him out of that school and demand it be defunded. AA is not only a proselytizing tool for religious dogma, it also gives false hope to people who really are in need of help. On top of that, the individuals who run this program are being paid for shoddy work.

    The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction - Salon.com
    Here's a quote from your source:

    court-mandated attendance, which began in the late 1980s, is today a staple of drug-crime policy. Every year, our state and federal governments spend over $15 billion on substance-abuse treatment for addicts, the vast majority of which are based on 12-step programs.
    The article conflates two different things. One is court mandated attendance at AA meetings. That costs state and Federal governments $0.00. Literally nothing. If the court mandates that a person attend AA for 90 days, he or she attends meetings and can donate $1 per meeting or more, or donate $0. Either way, the meager cost is on the attendee and not on government.

    Sometimes the court mandates treatment in state or federally funded treatment programs. A local 12 step based charity is funded in part by VA funds. But those are treatment centers or programs, and that is different than "AA." The VA send us as many as we can take because the charity does a better job and has better outcomes than any of the other alternatives available in this area.

    If you want to lament that there aren't more treatment options out there, I'm fine with that. I also believe we'd be better off with more options. Clearly many people aren't helped by AA. I'd love them to have 6 or 30 other programs to choose from. That's not a problem with AA.

  6. #266
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I guess we will just have to leave it there then. I really have nothing more to put forth without repeating myself. I think the programs curriculum speaks for itself. Any non biased, logical person would see that it is heavily religious in nature. Trying to make it less obvious by saying... "ok ok guys, from now on, we will say higher power instead of god", will only convince those who again, are weak minded. But we are not really surprised that the religious be less then genuine when they make their claims of being benign. All one has to do is take a quick look at history to see how conniving and cleaver they can be to those who are not capable of seeing thru it.
    The alcoholic who has the courage and will to get sober is anything but 'weak minded' whatever that is. To assume that it is a 'weak mind' that becomes alcoholic or who attends AA is a woefully ignorant attitude about what AA is, what alcoholism is, or what religion is. It requires a great deal of courage, self awareness, and intelligence to break the addictive cycle.

    And, if I was to sit down and write down the top 50 organizations that are religious in nature, AA would not be among them. I have never been to an AA or Al-Anon meeting, gathering, convention or whatever EVER in which religious faith was discussed. It just isn't done. A number of the recovering addicts/alcoholics who have posted in this thread are not 'religious' people--some say they remain agnostic or Atheist. And that is fine. They are just as welcome at an AA meeting as anybody else and nobody tries to 'convert' them at least in that setting.

    Many alcoholics do put their faith in God as a spiritual being and confess that, but they do not, at least in the AA setting, try to push who or what God is to them onto anybody else. The 'higher power' is simply an acknowledgment that the alcoholic is powerless over alcohol and he or she acknowledges he/she needs help to break his/her addiction. It is no different than admitting that the person is powerless over cancer or heart disease or diabetes or any other deadly affliction and reach out for help to get well.

    Non alcoholics drink to relax, socialize, sometimes to get high. The addict drinks or uses to feel normal--the addiction causes him to feel extremely uncomfortable, anxious, miserable when he is deprived of it. And one more time, nobody intends or wants or plans to be alcoholic any more than anybody intends or wants or plans to get cancer or to be diabetic. But for a substantial number of people who consume alcohol, it does happen just the same. Not because they are weak-minded, but because they are susceptible to the disease.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #267
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Oh and for those who say follow the money in AA? You don't have much to follow. The hat is passed for small donations to pay for the space or buy the coffee or whatever, but no donation is mandatory to attend the meetings.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #268
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Oh and for those who say follow the money in AA? You don't have much to follow. The hat is passed for small donations to pay for the space or buy the coffee or whatever, but no donation is mandatory to attend the meetings.
    True! And the funny thing is AA groups would have to refuse a government grant because of the prohibition against accepting outside contributions.

    One local group was confronted with what to do with a bequest ($5,000 as I recall) from a woman whose husband attended a particular meeting for decades before he died. She directed the money go to that named group, but they couldn't accept it as it was from a clearly outside source - a person who wasn't a member of AA. And there wouldn't have been any use for the money if they had accepted it. I suppose they could have donated it to the church where they met, but there was no staff to pay, or bills that weren't met by the regular donations from attendees. At any rate, the group didn't get a penny. Not sure what happened to the bequest.

  9. #269
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    AA is not based on science.

    the medical community has come a long long way.

    We've seen this work miracles.

    Sinclair Method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and it's based on science.
    If you build an army of 100 lions and their leader is a dog, in any fight, the lions will die like a dog. But if you build an army of 100 dogs and their leader is a lion, all dogs will fight like a lion.

  10. #270
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You obviously don't understand the concept of AA, of recovery, or of addiction. You didn't "quit". No one does. It's not a crutch. It assistance to remain in recovery from a serious disorder.

    And as far as it being a "Christian recruitment" group, the only folks I've ever heard who've said that are militant atheists who really don't understand AA. The "higher power" doesn't have to mean a deity. I can give several examples of people who I knew who used something completely different as their "higher power". AA often gets criticized for using "God", but there are meetings that omit the higher power from it's literature.
    I would be interested to hear about this

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