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Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #251
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    This is an interesting article about AA. It states; "Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. That is, about one of every fifteen people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober." So not only is it cultish and religious in nature, it is also ineffective. If I took my car to a mechanic 10 times to get it fixed and he fixed it on the 10th time, I would be looking for another mechanic. I would not be funneling him business and money like our government funnels business and money to AA programs across the country. If my kid came home from school and got a passing grade for getting 1 out of 10 questions correct, I would pull him out of that school and demand it be defunded. AA is not only a proselytizing tool for religious dogma, it also gives false hope to people who really are in need of help. On top of that, the individuals who run this program are being paid for shoddy work.

    The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction - Salon.com
    Here's the problem with all that you just posted. The overall success rate for treating the addicted is pretty low... probably around what the article states. Addiction and the draw to addiction is one of the toughest mental health issues to treat. However, what the authors failed to note... as did you, is this. Find what the success rate for UNTREATED addicts is and compare the stats you quoted to that.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #252
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    You can be as dismissive as you like, but only the weak minded would not see it for what it is and that its goal is religious indoctrination. I really don't know what other angle I could take in debating the obvious. Once you read the 12 steps that these programs rely on in order to graduate people to soberness. Then I would also point to the factual statistics that state that as high as 95% of the people who attend relapse. Sounds to me nearly as effective as religious dogma as well. I generally don't like to use popular sayings for fear of lacking originality, so I'll change it up a bit. If it walks like a sheep, talks like a sheep, and looks like a sheep, its probably a sheep.
    I'm not dismissing. That indicates that what you said has some validity. It doesn't. Your assertion that AA is religious in nature is a position of ignorance. You can't call the sky green just because you want it to be green. This sounds like the complaining of a militant atheist who gets annoyed if the word God appears anywhere in his vicinity. Perhaps you're not, but as you said, if it walks like a sheep, talks like a sheep, and looks like a sheep, its probably a sheep.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #253
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Firstly, AA is not funded by the governemnt in any way shape or form. Believing that it is demonstrates that you don't know the first thing of what you are discussing. Secondly, as I said in my previous post, the "higher power" can refer to anything one chooses. Anywhere God is mentioned, an alternative can be inserted if one chooses. AA is no more of a religious group then any other support group. Each individual group has it's own personality. Some may be more dogmatic, some more atheistic, some looser, etc... You are correct about the reason for addiction, however you are incorrect about the meaning behind that. Addiction is a coping skill. We all use coping skills to deal with difficult things. Some use coping skills that are healthy and productive. Others use some that are unhealthy and unproductive. This is not a refection on the strength or weakness of the individual, but of choices one makes.
    Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional - SFGate

    A snipit from the article, click the link for full article.
    Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional

    Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

    In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.
    Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that "requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment," the court said. "While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state."
    The 12 steps required for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that "a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" and a promise to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." They also call for prayer and meditation.
    Courts routinely force people to go to AA as part of fulfilling their sentence. How much more evidence do you need. Even the courts have determined it is unconstitutional on the grounds that AA is considered a religious group.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  4. #254
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional - SFGate

    A snipit from the article, click the link for full article.


    Courts routinely force people to go to AA as part of fulfilling their sentence. How much more evidence do you need. Even the courts have determined it is constitutional on the grounds that AA is considered a religious group.
    This is an OPINION. Just because a court made this ruling doesn't mean it's accurate. Sounds more like an appeal to authority logical fallacy, to me.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #255
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is an OPINION. Just because a court made this ruling doesn't mean it's accurate. Sounds more like an appeal to authority logical fallacy, to me.
    Opinions? How much more evidence do you need? Courts around the country are calling it unconstitutional and a religious group. Thats not opinion, thats the arm of the judicial system stating that it is unconstitutional.
    Does Mandatory AA/NA Violate the First Amendment? | North Carolina Criminal Law
    Three federal circuit courts have held that coerced participation in 12-step programs like AA and NA violates the First Amendment. In Kerr v. Ferry, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir. 1996), the Seventh Circuit held that requiring an inmate to attend NA meetings or risk suffering adverse effects for parole eligibility violated the Establishment Clause. The Second Circuit reached a similar conclusion in Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation, 115 F.3d 1068 (2d Cir. 1997), striking a probation condition requiring attendance at AA meetings. And most recently the Ninth Circuit determined that a parolee’s First Amendment rights were violated when his parole officer forced him to attend 12-step meetings as a condition of his parole. Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705 (9th Cir. 2007). In the latter two cases the courts found the law sufficiently clearly established to abrogate the officers’ qualified immunity. Qualified immunity shields government officials from liability for civil damages “insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known.” Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 (1982). In other words, Warner and Inouye were able to go forward with lawsuits against their officers for damages for violation of their constitutional rights under 42 U.S.C. 1983. Numerous federal district courts and state supreme courts have reached the same conclusion.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  6. #256
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Why not force people to go to church who have committed crimes. I mean, its not religious if they replace the words "god" and "Jesus" with other words. I scratch my head at the amount of twisting one must do to their mind in order to really believe that kind of logic.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  7. #257
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Opinions? How much more evidence do you need? Courts around the country are calling it unconstitutional and a religious group. Thats not opinion, thats the arm of the judicial system stating that it is unconstitutional.
    Does Mandatory AA/NA Violate the First Amendment? | North Carolina Criminal Law
    That is the justice department giving a name to something based on their OPINION. They read the words and apply their own meanings to them rather than understanding the flexibility in them. I know of plenty of people who attend AA meetings and I know of no one who believes them to be a religious organization in the least. The courts absolutely got this wrong.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #258
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Why not force people to go to church who have committed crimes. I mean, its not religious if they replace the words "god" and "Jesus" with other words. I scratch my head at the amount of twisting one must do to their mind in order to really believe that kind of logic.
    A church houses a religious organization. The organization defines itself as religious and it is designed to worship God... or whatever Gods it chooses to worship. AA is not a place to worship deities. Calling AA a religious organization takes a ton of mental gymnastics.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #259
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That is the justice department giving a name to something based on their OPINION. They read the words and apply their own meanings to them rather than understanding the flexibility in them. I know of plenty of people who attend AA meetings and I know of no one who believes them to be a religious organization in the least. The courts absolutely got this wrong.
    I guess we will just have to leave it there then. I really have nothing more to put forth without repeating myself. I think the programs curriculum speaks for itself. Any non biased, logical person would see that it is heavily religious in nature. Trying to make it less obvious by saying... "ok ok guys, from now on, we will say higher power instead of god", will only convince those who again, are weak minded. But we are not really surprised that the religious be less then genuine when they make their claims of being benign. All one has to do is take a quick look at history to see how conniving and cleaver they can be to those who are not capable of seeing thru it.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  10. #260
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    A church houses a religious organization. The organization defines itself as religious and it is designed to worship God... or whatever Gods it chooses to worship. AA is not a place to worship deities. Calling AA a religious organization takes a ton of mental gymnastics.
    Tons of mental gymnastics, do you even know the roots from which AA was born?

    Alcoholics Anonymous History: Dick B.’s AA History & Bible Roots

    All the pages I have visited clearly state that AA was born out of religious doctorine. Making it more palatable by toning down the religious overtones and wording does not make it any less religious.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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