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Thread: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

  1. #101
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Denial works great for a lot of people...
    Apparently you've bought into it. Cars serve a demonstrable purpose. If that purpose goes away, virtually everyone will stop driving cars. That does not quality as an addiction. Try again.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #102
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    I think AA helps some people quit drinking and stay sober.
    That's a good thing.
    Thumbs up.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

  3. #103
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Actually "control" is a prevalent trait in addicts. Alcoholics and addicts constantly have to control their environments as much as possible in order to be enabled. Alcoholics and addicts teach people in their lives how to act, react, and support their dependencies. It's just part of their survival tactics.

    And this brings us to another form of addiction not yet talked about in this forum. It's called "Codependency".

    Textbook Definition: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

    Personally, I'd almost rather be a drunk or junkie. Codependents have to suffer without self-medicating. Feeling like life is totally ****ed up while being sober - sucks.
    Let me re-phrase then.... I am a self-control freak. I don't try to control others, just myself. And you know what, for many whether codependent or not feel like life is totally ****ed up while being sober.... I've been there for quite a while now. Problem is, being drunk or high only guarantees it will remain ****ed up. I've never had any sympathy for co-dependent because I've seen where 90% they are also entirely the "enablers" although what I've seen is more like pushing them to use and abuse alcohol and/or drugs in very passive aggressive ways.

    I will not now nor ever feel sympathy for co-dependents, they have a choice, they can leave that person and go on with their lives. But instead they find so much power in screwing around with an addict, helping getting clean, then nagging and nudging and pushing about all manner of stupid crap until they re-offend, rinse and repeat forever. Most of the time the addict would be better served if he/she would recognize that they need to get away and stay away from co-dependents, who aren't sick at all, but are taking advantage of the addict's illness, ....the worst kind of asshole.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

  4. #104
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Okaaaaay.

    You have never met either of these people and you automatically assume his ex-girlfriend was right?

    Have you even been to an AA meeting? If you haven't, then you have NO IDEA what goes on.

    I went to CA meetings (cocaine annonymous - a branch of AA, exact same format, similar 12 steps). All they were to me was buddy buddy hug sessions. Most of the meetings were as follows. About 10-20 minutes to blather about the last meeting or 'events' coming up. Then some chit chat about addiction for 10 minutes. Then often someone would come up and spend 20 minutes talking about his/her 'war stories' of what he/she has gone through (like we have all not been their ourselves), then they would have a break, then they would give out the pins (for numbers of days clean), then they would spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about the upcoming CA event and how much they need volunteers. It's just a love in. How the hell does that deal with the underlying causes of our addictions?
    Now, I will say, once in a while they would break into small groups and people would talk more in depth about their problems...that I thought was helpful. But it was only once in a while that they would do that.

    Yes, if you want 'love and support' (yeah - like it's real love) and people to tell you how swell you are even though you are probably a thief or a mooch because that is the only way you can afford to feed your habit...then that is the place to go.
    Me? I want a place where people are supportive but aren't smiling all the time and telling you you are great and a good person. Most crack addicts are not good people. They could become good people. But most are either neglecting their responsibilities or are performing illegal acts to feed their habit; people that would steal from their mother to feed their addiction - these are not good people (though again - they still could become good people).
    I want the truth. I want the blunt truth from people that care but are not blind.

    And in the end - the only place I could find that was from a mirror.

    IMO, AA/CA are just love ins for starry eyed, weak addicts who cannot/will not quit on their own...all funded by the church to try and get more people into the God Club.

    If they work for you - fine. But please ask yourself, how can you say you have truly quit if you still need these meetings to keep clean. You have traded one addiction for another (granted, one is FAR better then the other).
    You will never truly be free of your habit until you can deal with it on your own. And I believe that the vast majority of people can do that but - like anything truly worthwhile - it is not easy.
    And there is the problem. Most addicts want the easy way out (that is usually why they are addicts), and intensive, self-reflection is NOT the easy way out.
    But it is - IMO - the only way to truly get out forever.
    Has it occurred to you that I might k now what I'm talking about?
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  5. #105
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Well you cannot say that anymore because I did (although technically we have not 'met').

    I was doing crack (a lot of it), had lots of money, my health was okay, no dependants and in no legal trouble whatsoever and I quit completely on my own.
    I wanted to quit from the first time I tried it. One day I finally got tired of it and realized that it was a bridge to nowhere. Plus, the dot.com crash had started and I thought it wise to cut back on such an expensive 'hobby' while my investments were under duress.

    And I have known several people that have quit simply because they were fed up with the lifestyle - not because of legal or health issues.
    Fed up with the lifestyle, concerned about money and potential problems are all consequences. If one has NO consequences whatsoever and no potential consequences, and the behavior is enjoyable, there is no reason to stop.

    Also, those that I did know that quit because they 'had' to usually went back on it because addictikn is not because of boredom or rebellion, it's because of pain and suffering that an addict is trying to escape from. Just because a court orders you to quit - that does nothing to help the underlying cause of the addiction. In fact, it probably enhances it.
    Sometimes it is the court that gets an addict into treatment. Once there, then there is the possibility that it may take.

    IMO, in most cases, the ONLY way for an addict to truly kick their addiction (whatever it is) is to want to kick it badly enough - not for others to try and force him/her to kick it.
    Certainly, in order to be in recovery, the addict has to want it. But the initial alteration in behavior can and usually does come from some outside source.

    And please try and remember - and I mean no offense - but just because because you supposedly counselled addicts, that does not mean for one second you understand them or know what they feel or why they do it.
    Only addicts can know what they are going through - just as only someone that has given birth to a child can really know what it is like to go through...you have to experience it directly.
    One can certainly understand what an addict goes through without being an addict. You correctly identified the underlying cause... some sort of emotional pain that the addict is trying to cover or run from. Anyone can understand that kind of emotional pain. Different people handle it differently and make different choices around it. But the pain can be understood, regardless of the coping skills (health or unhealthy).
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #106
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Oh great...some know-it-all counsellor who just because he makes money off of other people's misery and apparently thinks he understands it all.
    I understand it a whole lot better than you. You just seem to be some addict who is just pissed that he can't use crack anymore and, in a holier than thou way, has decided that he knows what's best for anyone with an addiction.

    Gee like I have not run into this type before...not.
    I've run into your type plenty of times before. We call them "dry drunks". The only difference between you and an addict is that you don't use anymore. Same issues. Just no drugs.

    Having dealt with you before I will not waste my time trying to convince you of anything...the effort would be wasted.
    I don't consider demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about a waste. I consider it a public service for anyone here who might read what you write on this topic and take is seriously.

    What I will say is that if you need something external to stop you from using again, then that external thing IS a crutch. To say it is not is just counselling gobbledegook that your types use so that those you 'help' feel good about these crutches they use.
    Nope. It's not a crutch... anymore than a diabetic who needs insulin uses that insulin as a crutch. Like it or not, addiction is a medical condition and using something like AA to assist with that medical condition is not a crutch... not in the way that you are terming it. Your opinion that an addiction isn't a medical condition, is just that. An opinion, and an uninformed one at that. It speaks more towards your own issues than the issue we are discussing.

    And yes, people do quit. If you have not used for 12 years, then you have quit for the 12 years...by the very definition of quit. Yes, you are still an addict...but you have quit. But like anything you quit, you can always start doing it again. Until you die, nothing you quit is forever.
    Semantics. You have stopped. You have not quit. Quit indicates a cure.

    And, once again, if you have never been addicted to the 'drug' in question (booze, drugs, food, porn, whatever) then it is you who does not understand the subject.
    It is the height of arrogance and ignorance to have never done something and then to turn around and tell someone who has done that thing that you know better then they do what they are going through and that you know better then they do how to stop it.
    I explained this to you in my last post. It is the height of arrogance to think of yourself as some special snowflake whom most cannot understand. I hear that from addicts all the time. It's an excuse. That's all.

    hat's next? Assuming you are a man, are you going to tell women how you know better then they do what childbirth feels like?
    Apparently you don't know the difference between physical pain and emotional pain.

    Go back to your practice and make more money telling other people about things you have never experienced yourself pal.

    We are done here as I am not wasting another minute on your know-it-all, arrogant nonsense.

    Good day.
    Let me explain it to you. You came in here with some holier than thou arrogance, based on your personal experience and tried to pass it off as truth. Firstly, I am far more arrogant than you, I'm better at it, and your personal experience in no way proves your position. You seem to believe that because your experience was terrible, that discounts AA as viable. THAT is the height of arrogance, but the problem with your arrogance is that it has no basis in logic. That's the difference between your arrogance and mine. Now, all you seem to be capable of doing is making invalid assumptions. And I will continue to demonstrate that they make no sense. Feel free to ignore my posts, but you can count on me NOT doing the same if you try to arrogantly present your experiences as FACT again.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #107
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Has it occurred to you that I might k now what I'm talking about?
    He keeps making these preposterous assumptions that just support his position... but are nothing but assumptions nonetheless. AA works for many. Doesn't work for some. It didn't work for him. And that last fact is irrelevant to a global assessment on AA.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #108
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Let me explain it to you. You came in here with some holier than thou arrogance, based on your personal experience and tried to pass it off as truth. Firstly, I am far more arrogant than you, I'm better at it, and your personal experience in no way proves your position. You seem to believe that because your experience was terrible, that discounts AA as viable. THAT is the height of arrogance, but the problem with your arrogance is that it has no basis in logic. That's the difference between your arrogance and mine. Now, all you seem to be capable of doing is making invalid assumptions. And I will continue to demonstrate that they make no sense. Feel free to ignore my posts, but you can count on me NOT doing the same if you try to arrogantly present your experiences as FACT again.
    I feel almost the exact same way and took issue with the "crutch" comment as well. The thing about being an addict is it makes you want to believe that you get it - "it" meaning everything about addiction. Unfortunately, everything is subjective and while it's fine to talk about your experiences (I appreciate anybody who is willing to admit to being or having been an addict) it's better to say "in my experience..." rather than something like "here's how it is..."

    Like I said in my previous posts, there is no right and wrong. There is no cure. The vast, vast majority of addicts and alcoholics don't respond well to treatment. And the people who follow the most successful treatment plans, such as methadone maintenance for opiate addicts, are the most looked down upon. I am not an alcoholic but I have family members who are, and I've been to AA, and I can understand why somebody would not like it but we - and especially the addicts and former addicts - should not be slamming it.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelgangirl View Post
    Most of the "new recruits" are young and court ordered. Typical college age-- reckless mistake-- but brainwashed to believe "they have a disease" that is "lifelong!"

    Talk about job security...

    AA/NA do at least as much harm as they do "good."
    There is that. A person I know got popped for a DUI a few years ago. He had to be assessed to see if he had a problem and needed treatment, or if it was a fluke and no treatment needed.

    Guess who got to do the assessment? The same people who did the treatments.

    Guess what the assessment concluded? Surprise!... treatment was "necessary".

    I have since heard that the slightest thing makes treatment necessary, and conclusions of no treatment necessary are pretty much non-existent.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #110
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    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrider View Post
    My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

    Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

    AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

    I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces.

    AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.
    Anecdotes are often nice stories, but not evidence in a debate. They are proof of nothing as they are an example of "ONE" and as most rules have exceptions, an anecdote can be nothing but one of those exceptions. Unless the proposition includes "ALL" or "NONE" we have to accept the anecdote as nothing by a nice story. AA will never tell you they have a 100% success rate nor will they tell you that they are the ONLY path (they will tell you they are the BEST path).

    So, my mere response is "that's nice".
    Last edited by upsideguy; 05-04-15 at 11:55 AM.

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