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Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?


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I never knew that about Eisenhower - he sounds like a man of some principle. Well the dropping of those A-bombs has reaped a whirlwind ever since.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower: "In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.'
 
I do not understand what you're saying here.

I'm sorry to have been unclear. If we are going to operate as the nations we love to criticise for a lack of regard for human life, then we should own it. But the US tends to advance a superior attitude of morality. The defender of democracy, rule of law, human rights and the like. The "shinning city on a hill". The fact is that the US has used its CIA to overthrow multiple governments, usually democratic left leaning governments and replacing them with right wing dictatorships. Imperialism, hegemony, and interference in the internal affairs of other nations. War crimes, well there's been plenty posted on that here already and it's not foreign to US policy. We shouldn't dismiss this as war is hell and **** happens, otherwise we loose the right to criticise others, or to prosecute others.
 
General Dwight D. Eisenhower: "In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.'
Thanks for this. So was Truman ultimately the bad guy in this scenario?

It's a very small situation in comparison with Hiroshima and Nagasaki but many believe that the Falklands War in 1982 was avoidable - see Britain's approach on the Falklands: neglect and hope for the best | UK news | The Guardian Comparisons with the Iraq War in 2003 were made in terms of how the Govt handed intelligence to overstate the need for war. Ultimately, a powerful leader, unaccountable to international opinion can choose to go to war on a pretext and the USA and Britain have done this too many times. I see no big change of heart on the horizon despite some mutterings about "mistakes" on Iraq.
 
My post was a rejection of the premise that Americans overstate their contribution to WW2.

The USA did a lot but not any more than England or the USSR.

We were not attacked by the Germans. ... Our involvement was not forced, it was voluntary.

ummm... the Germans declared war on the USA first.

At the end of the day, during Europe's darkest hour, of all the nations who were never attacked by Hitler, it was America who came to fight side by side with you. It wasn't the Canadians. It wasn't the Brazilians.

Yeah, the Canadians sure did and way before the USA did too

It wasn't the Chinese. It wasn't the Swedes or the Swiss or the nations of the Middle East. It was the Americans.

The Chinese were fighting for their lives against the Japanese... why, and more importantly HOW, would they go fight the Germans?
 
We can afford to be positive about our nations but other nations are still recovering from our atrocities and we need to keep that somewhere in our minds too, in case it happens again.

Funny you mention that. My wife is from the Philippines. Here's an example of a country that was crapped on by the Spanish for 300 years, then was subjected to a brutal suppression of a guerrilla war over a fifteen year period by the Americans. It was the site of a horrific massacre committed by American soldiers that I'd wager 99.99% of Americans living today have never heard of (The "Massacre" and the Aftermath - US History Scene). And yet my wife's father, if he harbored any grudges, sure never let me know about it. In fact, he proudly served in the Commonwealth Army in the months before the Japanese invaded his island in the Spring of 1942 and then fought as a guerrilla against the Japanese for the duration of the war. It was this wartime service that ultimately permitted him to become a U.S. citizen. One thing that I found extraordinary was he harbored no ill will against the Japanese, even though their brutality cut close to home. I suppose if he was angry with anyone it was with himself for beheading a Catholic priest with a sugarcane machete, but then that's another story.
 
This is wrong on so many levels... we showed up in the end of WWI after the Allies had already turned the tide of the war and in WWII the British had already turned the Nazis back in Africa, their navy had stopped the German Navy ending forever any thought of invading Britain and the Russians handled the Eastern Front almost 99% on their own.

Hitler's biggest problem was biting off much more then he could chew. If he had not invaded Russia, Great Britain very well may have fallen both in Africa and at home. And it was the allies under American leadership that liberated western Europe.
 
Hitler's biggest problem was biting off much more then he could chew. If he had not invaded Russia, Great Britain very well may have fallen both in Africa and at home. And it was the allies under American leadership that liberated western Europe.

Taking on Russia with Two Fronts going on was a mistake. Also, the delay in launching his attack on Russia didn't help at all.
 
A great nation? Yes... I just find it great for white men for most of its existence. Other nations had their **** together far before the USA. New Zealand, Australia, The U.K., for example.

They had their **** together, yes...but not in quite the way America has. America for instance became the economic and military power house it is despite the limited time it has existed compared to Europe. America is unique.
 
They had their **** together, yes...but not in quite the way America has. America for instance became the economic and military power house it is despite the limited time it has existed compared to Europe. America is unique.

We were and still are one of the only nations to have such an industrial base to do so...
 
They had their **** together, yes...but not in quite the way America has. America for instance became the economic and military power house it is despite the limited time it has existed compared to Europe. America is unique.

Then again, America always has been - for most diplomatic and military purposes - an island nation. After the War of 1812, unlike almost every other nation on the planet, we've never had an enemy next door to us that could present an existential threat to our nation.
 
I have to disagree. Even if all of those troops were in Britain, I doubt they could have stood up any better to the Nazis than they did. They may not have had those troops in the first place if they did not have the colonies. The British battles in the Pacific also tied up Japanese troops that could have been used to fight the Americans.

Perhaps. I am basing my take on comments in the book: "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by the late William Shirer. Great Britain fought admirably. They had to for the sake of their own survival. Especially the RAF. Great Britain's biggest problem was that it did not take the Nazi threat seriously until it was nearly too late.
 
Then again, America always has been - for most diplomatic and military purposes - an island nation. After the War of 1812, unlike almost every other nation on the planet, we've never had an enemy next door to us that could present an existential threat to our nation.

Which is why, at first, we thought we could sit out World War 2.
 
Which is why, at first, we thought we could sit out World War 2.

Very true.

But the days when the idea of isolationism could be practically considered are long gone. If nothing else, the internet itself has put the final nail in the coffin of political isolationism.
 
I'm sorry to have been unclear. If we are going to operate as the nations we love to criticise for a lack of regard for human life, then we should own it. But the US tends to advance a superior attitude of morality. The defender of democracy, rule of law, human rights and the like. The "shinning city on a hill". The fact is that the US has used its CIA to overthrow multiple governments, usually democratic left leaning governments and replacing them with right wing dictatorships. Imperialism, hegemony, and interference in the internal affairs of other nations. War crimes, well there's been plenty posted on that here already and it's not foreign to US policy. We shouldn't dismiss this as war is hell and **** happens, otherwise we loose the right to criticise others, or to prosecute others.
That was not my intent.

I was trying to say that War seems inherently dirty, and any involved parties almost inevitably seem to participate in a questionable action at some point.

Thus I dislike that it appears some are singling out the USA as the crowning example of a nation being involved in acts that are questionable or outright wrong - be they military or otherwise.
When other nations have had and are having similar issues.

I'm saying it all needs to be addressed.
 
Just saw Avengers Age of Ultron, after seeing that **** that Will guy.
 
Thus I dislike that it appears some are singling out the USA as the crowning example of a nation being involved in acts that are questionable or outright wrong - be they military or otherwise.

When you're King of the Hill, it's only natural that someone with an inferiority complex wants to knock you on your ass. From my perspective, though, you don't try to defend the indefensible. For example, there can be no moral justification for the indiscriminate killing of kids with incendiaries as we did in Japan during WWII. But do I lose sleep over it? No. If there is a moral to that story it is don't place war production among civilians in so-called micro-factories. If you do, then you better be willing to assume the consequences. The Japanese have no one to blame but themselves for the hell that was rained upon them.
 
Please explain what exactly makes a country great and how the United States exemplifies that more than every other nation.
Please explain why people applaud the idea that we are not great.
 
Because a little humility and introspection go a long way, especially in a country prone to blind patriotism.

We have Oliver Stone and Michael Moore for that. At this point in our history I'd prefer a little more ass kicking and less introspection.
 
We have Oliver Stone and Michael Moore for that. At this point in our history I'd prefer a little more ass kicking and less introspection.

And that is why you are very likely part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
 
And that is why you are very likely part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

When you're confronted with something like ISIS ass kicking is the only solution. And I mean we need to dig up Curtis LeMay.
 
When you're confronted with something like ISIS ass kicking is the only solution. And I mean we need to dig up Curtis LeMay.

We are not confronted with ISIS. They're on the other side of the world. And killing them is not any solution. We've been killing terrorists for decades, and all we've gotten for our troubles is more terrorists.
 
We are not confronted with ISIS. They're on the other side of the world. And killing them is not any solution. We've been killing terrorists for decades, and all we've gotten for our troubles is more terrorists.

They beheaded citizens of ours. That alone is enough in my opinion to obliterate every last one of them. And, yes, we've been killing terrorists for a long time, and we might have to keep killing them, but every one you eliminate is one less threat you have to deal with. The fact that we haven't had another 9/11 is evidence that we must be doing something right. On the other hand, I'd like to see your evidence that if we didn't confront them with force they wouldn't pose a threat. At some point I think ISIS will be relegated to the dustbin of history. I can't say when, but it will happen, most likely because some people with a lot of weapons just decide to kick ass. Whether we'll be included among the ass kickers I can't say.
 
Top candidates would be Switzerland or Norway .. or Japan ..However, neither have our problems with minorities and intolerance. :shock:

Excuse me? I can't think of a more xenophobic or racist society than Japan. If you're black, good luck renting an apartment in Tokyo. You'd better rent a stand-in to meet the landlord. You only don't see evidence of intolerance because Japan pretty much doesn't admit immigrants.
 
General Dwight D. Eisenhower: "In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.'

These words should be taken with a bucket of salt. When he was President Eisenhower fully believed in the usefulness of nuclear weapons.
 
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