View Poll Results: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

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  • Yes, America is the greatest Country.

    36 62.07%
  • I agree with Will.

    22 37.93%
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Thread: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

  1. #201
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    One reason Great Britain came so close getting overrun by the third reich is that their military forces were so spread out administering all of the colonies they still held around the world. Shameful.
    I have to disagree. Even if all of those troops were in Britain, I doubt they could have stood up any better to the Nazis than they did. They may not have had those troops in the first place if they did not have the colonies. The British battles in the Pacific also tied up Japanese troops that could have been used to fight the Americans.

  2. #202
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    At the end of the day, during Europe's darkest hour, of all the nations who were never attacked by Hitler, it was America who came to fight side by side with you. It wasn't the Canadians. It wasn't the Brazilians. It wasn't the Chinese. It wasn't the Swedes or the Swiss or the nations of the Middle East. It was the Americans.
    Since I am Canadian I would like to say you are wrong. We were involved in the war from the very beginning to the very end in both Europe and the Pacific. All the convoys that brought supplies for the UK launched from Halifax guarded by ships with sonar perfected by the Canadian navy. By the end of the war we had the fifth-largest navy and fourth largest air force. We also liberated many important cities and other parts of Europe (mainly in the Netherlands). Canada played a significant role in the war and played an important role in the survival of Britain.
    Last edited by Carjosse; 05-05-15 at 10:15 PM.

  3. #203
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    Since I am Canadian I would like to say you are wrong. We were involved in the war from the very beginning to the very end in both Europe and the Pacific. All the convoys that brought supplies for the UK launched from Halifax guarded by ships with sonar perfected by the Canadian navy. By the end of the war we had the fifth-largest navy and fourth largest air force. We also liberated many important cities and other parts of Europe (mainly in the Netherlands). Canada played a significant role in the war and played an important role in the survival of Britain.
    Yeah, I didn't get that one, either. Canada in the last century was like a little brother to Britain. I guess he forgot about the "neutral" Americans who wanted to fight but whose best path to the war was via Canada.

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  4. #204
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Britain had defeated any plans for Operation Sealion by the end of September 1940: 11 months before you came off the fence. So, the US did not 'ride in to your rescue', but contributed much once aroused. Had the UK conceded, as it could have, in August 1940, the US would have had nothing to support, and a whole continent to suppress, since it would have been very much on its own. Without the UK's resistance, Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. Without US support, Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. Are you still going to claim that the US won WWII alone?
    I never claimed nor implied that the US won WW2 alone, so I hope that's not the way my comment read.

    The resoluteness and character of the British people in defending their homeland during the war is to be admired and respected. My post was simply intended to respond to a post which downplayed the US' contribution during the war - to remind that poster that without the addition of the US to the war effort, things would likely have ended up quite differently.

    My post was a rejection of the premise that Americans overstate their contribution to WW2.

    While America has done many questionable things during its history, the fact that the nation, in Europe's greatest hour of need, sacrificed treasure and lives in defense of our friends and allies while many other nations sat idle bespeaks a higher side of our nature of which we have now proven capable and has set a standard to which we should now seek to emulate in our present generation.

    It was a moment in American history over which Americans should rightly feel proud.

    We were not attacked by the Germans. We were not defending our homeland. We were not double-crossed like the Russians. Our involvement was not forced, it was voluntary.

    America intervened on the European battlefield simply out of a desire to support and rescue our allies, and our sacrifice toward that end in terms of lives and treasure lost make the moment worth commemorating for every American as one of our finest hours.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 05-06-15 at 12:10 AM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    Since I am Canadian I would like to say you are wrong. We were involved in the war from the very beginning to the very end in both Europe and the Pacific. All the convoys that brought supplies for the UK launched from Halifax guarded by ships with sonar perfected by the Canadian navy. By the end of the war we had the fifth-largest navy and fourth largest air force. We also liberated many important cities and other parts of Europe (mainly in the Netherlands). Canada played a significant role in the war and played an important role in the survival of Britain.
    I was waiting for someone to come by and say that. Took you long enough!

    You're absolutely right. Just had to take a jab at you.

  6. #206
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Yeah but still, what do you take pride in? Usually its the land. Public lands as in our vast National Parks and Forests are called our greatest idea. It is the one thing that we have undeniably done a better job at than any other country on earth. Regardless of whether you live in the city or in a rural area, you can strap a pack on, hit the trail in our hundreds of millions of acres of protected wildernesses and enjoy near perfect freedom. There are very few other places on earth that you can do that.
    Yep! And I do just that often.
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  7. #207
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    1. The point was that generally, when Europeans view American patriotism with fear and skepticism, it comes from viewing patriotism in a wider sense through the lens of European historical experience, which includes the relatively recent fascist history of Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.

    2. You equate patriotism with nationalism, and nationalism with violence, as that has been your experience on your continent. My point was not to in any way claim that Europeans are still fascists or that Britain has this problem, I only meant to show that your view of American patriotism may be skewed since you're looking at it through the tinted lens of your history, culture, and experiences which do not exactly correlate with ours.

    3. As for the US' role in preserving world peace, let's pursue a thought experiment: Say the United States dropped off the face of the earth following WW2 and the rest of the world were exactly in tact as it was in 1949. We'll continue to assume that the allies won the war, just for fun.
    [cut to save words]

    As such, most of Europe, with Britain as the possible exception, would have been communist, with nations like France, Germany, and Italy being much like today's Eastern European nations.

    4. China would never have opened trade with the West, and it's modern capitalist/communist mix would most likely be purely communist. Japan, a mess after WW2, would never have been rebuilt in to the robust economy it has today. A war between Japan and China would have been likely.

    5. Israel would have fallen to its neighbors, and, in addition to the 6 million Jews that died during the holocaust, several million more would have died in Israel in the years following.

    6. Lacking the grain exported by the USA and lacking any robust economic development in Europe (as a result of Soviet communism), many in third world nations would starve.

    7. Man would never have walked on the moon.

    8. A series of important inventions would never have occurred, or would have occurred later, since they were invented in America.
    I've numbered your points for ease of replying.

    1. and 2. You may be right about how other Europeans view American patriotism, comparing it with fascism, but in Britain, we really don't. We've never had a fascist past of our own which we recoil from and which skews our view of America in this way. Our history of fighting fascism in Europe is one which is shared with the USA. A lot of Brits would go along with your analysis of US influence but not me. Criticisms of America are more along the lines that it has had huge military and commercial power and has not always used it responsibly, blinded by its own patriotism. The level of criticism would depend on one's position on the political spectrum.

    3. Moving on to your thought experiment, WW2 would have ended very differently if we took out the contributions of any one country, especially Russia, UK and USA. If the Nazis had eventually been defeated but European forces alone, then Europe would have been even weaker, including Russia. The Warsaw Pact countries correlated more or less with the countries ceded to the USSR under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. I've not heard of Russian ambitions to conquer Western Europe in the aftermath of WW2 which were checked by the USA and NATO alliance but I don't claim to be an expert.

    Certainly, the arms race and various proxy wars and manoeuvring across the world in the Cold War maintained the USSR's desire to remain a superpower to compete with the USA. In the absence of the USA, a major reason for its expansionism would have fallen away. European powers would probably have had to work with each other in a more conciliatory way. A war-weakened Russia may not have been able to contain uprisings in Hungary and the Czech Republic. We saw how quickly the Iron Curtain collapsed and this process could have started sooner. Endless conjectures are possible and we'll never know.

    4. and 5. I don't see how you can predict these things.

    6. Starvation in developing countries could have been higher at various times and could have been lower at various times. Despite the colossal wealth of the first world, we still haven't been able or willing to use it to ensure that African countries are self-sustaining, 70 years on. The USA's long-standing influence on global trade rules as they affect the third world is something we could look into. I'd wager that the rules favour US and European producers over those in the developing world.

    7. and 8. Perhaps so. The space race is a colossal waste of money in my view. Other inventions may have been created in place of existing ones.

    After all this, perhaps we should revert to the thread issue - the apparent greatness of the USA. You admitted to some "mistakes" along the way by the USA. Which ones were you thinking of?

  8. #208
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The point was that generally, when Europeans view American patriotism with fear and skepticism, it comes from viewing patriotism in a wider sense through the lens of European historical experience, which includes the relatively recent fascist history of Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.

    You equate patriotism with nationalism, and nationalism with violence, as that has been your experience on your continent. My point was not to in any way claim that Europeans are still fascists or that Britain has this problem, I only meant to show that your view of American patriotism may be skewed since you're looking at it through the tinted lens of your history, culture, and experiences which do not exactly correlate with ours.

    As for the US' role in preserving world peace, let's pursue a thought experiment: Say the United States dropped off the face of the earth following WW2 and the rest of the world were exactly in tact as it was in 1949. We'll continue to assume that the allies won the war, just for fun.

    The Soviet Union would surely have been the world's only superpower for at least 40 years following the war. Logically, Germany would never have been divided in to east and west, and all of Germany would have fallen under the Soviet sphere. NATO would never have existed. The only existing military power in Europe would have been Britain, not strong enough by herself to withstand Soviet influence, and certainly not strong enough to encroach on the USSR's influence of continental Europe.

    As such, most of Europe, with Britain as the possible exception, would have been communist, with nations like France, Germany, and Italy being much like today's Eastern European nations.

    China would never have opened trade with the West, and it's modern capitalist/communist mix would most likely be purely communist. Japan, a mess after WW2, would never have been rebuilt in to the robust economy it has today. A war between Japan and China would have been likely.

    Israel would have fallen to its neighbors, and, in addition to the 6 million Jews that died during the holocaust, several million more would have died in Israel in the years following.

    Lacking the grain exported by the USA and lacking any robust economic development in Europe (as a result of Soviet communism), many in third world nations would starve.

    Man would never have walked on the moon.

    A series of important inventions would never have occurred, or would have occurred later, since they were invented in America.
    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    What colonies does America hold?
    None but that's not the point if we look at the modern world. You don't need to hold colonies physically to have an imperial mentality, which IMO still exists in the USA, Russia, China and Britain. The EU is heading the same way too.

  9. #209
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Since there's still a few people on this thread who persist with the notion that the USA is objectively the best country in the world despite making some "mistakes", here's an interesting Wikipedia article about US war crimes for your perusal. Check the articles linked at the bottom too. Does anyone want to discuss these issues, in the context of national greatness?
    United States war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  10. #210
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-scot View Post
    Since there's still a few people on this thread who persist with the notion that the USA is objectively the best country in the world despite making some "mistakes", here's an interesting Wikipedia article about US war crimes for your perusal. Check the articles linked at the bottom too. Does anyone want to discuss these issues, in the context of national greatness?
    United States war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In war things get ****ing dirty.

    I expect you would find similar actions from any country involved in any war.

    Unacceptable, true. But it seems like the nature of war brings out the ugly side of humans, and the longer and dirtier it is the more likely something like that will happen.
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