View Poll Results: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

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  • Yes, America is the greatest Country.

    36 62.07%
  • I agree with Will.

    22 37.93%
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Thread: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-scot View Post
    I agree that colonisation was and is wrong and that Britain should never have done it. However, I don't claim that my country has ever been the "best" or "greatest" by any objective standard, which I am astonished to see that some Americans really do believe about their country.
    But then America is in fact the greatest country on the planet. No brag....just fact.

  2. #182
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-scot View Post
    America's cockiness is just as dangerous as that of Britain's of the past, perhaps more, because of sheer devastating firepower. You'll never find me harking back to the greatness of Britain's colonial past - though many Britons sadly still do. The Americans were right to insist that Britain relinquish the empire after WW2, but are wrong to copy this mentality, as though it was their turn. The chickens have long been coming to roost as a result.
    What colonies does America hold?

  3. #183
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    No, I don't recognise that at all. No one I know compares modern US nationalism with European nationalism of a century ago.
    Please define to me the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

    When you have a history of positive experiences of nationalism to balance against negative European experiences of nationalism, then we can talk further.
    Patriotism is, generally speaking, individualized cultural attachment to one's homeland or an individual's devotion to one's country, based on a variety of reasons. A soldier's family is patriotic. Folks rooting for the USA to win a gold metal in the Olympics are being patriotic. It's simply pride in one's country. It can be based on a number of factors.

    Nationalism is a generalized belief in adherence to a set of shared national ideals, and, unlike patriotism, gives more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage.

    Fascism is a political belief based on nationalism that not only espouses unity by way of nation or cultural background, but adds the element of considering the national identity in question to be superior to other national identities and, ergo, holding other national identities to be inferior to it's own.

    European fascism of the 1930's and 40's placed the blame for the woes of the nation in question (Germany, Italy, etc) directly on other nationalities (Jews, Gypsies, French, Brits) and used this as justification to commit violence against them.

    ----

    I can put it in to football terms, so that we're not getting too academic.

    A patriot is the equivalent of a fan who cheers on a particular team. He goes to work, he goes to the pub, watches the match, and cheers for his team.

    A nationalist is the equivalent of the fan who knows all the chants, knows the names of all the bench players and coaches, wears the team jersey, paints his face, and he believes the casual fan at the pub is not a REAL fan because he doesn't wear the colors and do the chants. The team is part of his identity.

    A fascist is the equivalent of the nationalist fan, except he fervently believes his team is better than any other team.

    A fascist in the 30's European style blames the fans of the opposing team for his own team's loss, and proceeds to start a fight in the stands over it.
    Last edited by Peter Grimm; 05-05-15 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Added the football metaphor

  4. #184
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Agreed with the exception of your claim that almost none of the first world's transportation fuel money goes to terrorists. Perhaps the following will help:

    Fueling Terror
    That'll just be dismissed as another advocacy group. But that's a fine institute staffed with fellows that tower above the critics of it. Its president is Robert McFarlane, former National Security Advisor to Ronald Reagan, the Director is the CKO and senior researcher for the institute for counter terrorism. Its senior fellows are PHD's in everything from foreign relations to physics and energy. Its advisors include international energy consultants, the former CIA director Samuel Wolsey, the deputy commander of the US/European Command, and SF's from the Brookings Institute, to name but a few!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #185
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Patriotism is, generally speaking, individualized cultural attachment to one's homeland or an individual's devotion to one's country, based on a variety of reasons. A soldier's family is patriotic. Folks rooting for the USA to win a gold metal in the Olympics are being patriotic. It's simply pride in one's country. It can be based on a number of factors.

    Nationalism is a generalized belief in adherence to a set of shared national ideals, and, unlike patriotism, gives more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage.

    Fascism is a political belief based on nationalism that not only espouses unity by way of nation or cultural background, but adds the element of considering the national identity in question to be superior to other national identities and, ergo, holding other national identities to be inferior to it's own.

    European fascism of the 1930's and 40's placed the blame for the woes of the nation in question (Germany, Italy, etc) directly on other nationalities (Jews, Gypsies, French, Brits) and used this as justification to commit violence against them.

    ----

    I can put it in to football terms, so that we're not getting too academic.

    A patriot is the equivalent of a fan who cheers on a particular team. He goes to work, he goes to the pub, watches the match, and cheers for his team.

    A nationalist is the equivalent of the fan who knows all the chants, knows the names of all the bench players and coaches, wears the team jersey, paints his face, and he believes the casual fan at the pub is not a REAL fan because he doesn't wear the colors and do the chants. The team is part of his identity.

    A fascist is the equivalent of the nationalist fan, except he fervently believes his team is better than any other team.

    A fascist in the 30's European style blames the fans of the opposing team for his own team's loss, and proceeds to start a fight in the stands over it.
    That's a very good attempt at distinguishing differences. Fair play to you!

    I don't agree, but top respect!
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  6. #186
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    I see we are maintaining a truly intellectual level of discourse.
    I notice you have withdrawn from this discussion. Any reason for having given up?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  7. #187
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    We did save you during both world wars and, while we may puff our chests out annoyingly and we might overstate our relative contribution to the European front (similarly, many Europeans completely forget that WW2 had a pacific theatre in which the USA fought almost exclusively in addition to our assistance in Europe)....one cannot escape the fact that the United States did ride in on its white steed to your rescue....and keep in mind we were not directly attacked like the Russians were, we just showed up in the nick of time with the sole purpose of rescuing your ass. Had we not done so, the Germans would likely have succeeded in pressing west toward Britain.

    Now, the U.S. Has been compensated for this, as this was the rise of America as a global superpower, replacing Great Britain. However, history is what it is.
    Britain had defeated any plans for Operation Sealion by the end of September 1940: 11 months before you came off the fence. So, the US did not 'ride in to your rescue', but contributed much once aroused. Had the UK conceded, as it could have, in August 1940, the US would have had nothing to support, and a whole continent to suppress, since it would have been very much on its own. Without the UK's resistance, Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. Without US support, Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. Are you still going to claim that the US won WWII alone?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  8. #188
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    We instead look to the ideals and principals that we can agree make a great society and then strive for that. We "stood for something", because we had common values, even if we were imperfect in applying them.
    Again, I'd say that's an idealized view of American history, although there is some validity to your statement. Yes, we had common cultural values that, regardless of social or economic status, served in one sense as the glue that held the society together and permitted it to prosper. Charles Murray, in his book Coming Apart, did a reasonably good job outlining some of these values and how they've evolved over the last few decades. And overall I'd say the world has benefited from there having been a United States of America.

    Nonetheless, I have a hard time reconciling my feeling that the U.S. has some significant moral and ethical baggage against the idea that we can hold ourselves up as some sort of moral beacon. For example, how can anyone claim that we "stood for freedom" when we annihilated American Indians and stole their lands, enslaved blacks, manufactured a war against Spain so we could join the imperialist club, dropped nuclear weapons on innocent children, etc. To say that we were "imperfect" seems a bit underwhelming when placed in these contexts.
    Нава́льный 2018

  9. #189
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I
    We helped end Apartheid in South Africa. We helped bring down the Berlin Wall. .
    I'll refrain from making a snide comment here and will just say that I'm curious about your logic , care to expand?

  10. #190
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    Re: Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

    I am not sure America was ever the greatest nation on Earth...
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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