View Poll Results: Should the US and other Western states recognize Kurdish independence?

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  • Yes

    6 54.55%
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    5 45.45%
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Thread: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence [W:59]

  1. #11
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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    We are saying something similar, but for different reasons. In a way you have helped me prove my case.

    I used Iraq as an example, but for the Kurds to obtain real independence it would take Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Iran and arguably a very small part of Armenia (which is already small.) I am asking you to consider this as the regional political spectrum of all these nations is far more tricky than just dealing with Iraq. The Kurds have not obtained a unified degree of self-governance in all of those nations.

    Economically the Kurds have plenty going for them, and could do well assuming cooperation with those very same nations they would have to be independent of. The real reason is while the Kurdish region is rather large and in oil rich territory not a bit of it touches an outlet (like the Persian Gulf, or the Mediterranean, or the Black Sea.)

    It would be tough for the Kurds to obtain real independence *without* outsiders making it happen by force. And historically, we know that that leads to.
    There is no need to "take" anything from Armenia, which is far to the North.
    Also, I am proposing using the existing Kurdish autonomous region as a starting base precisely because it is relatively well-established.
    As for the idea that countries can't exist without an outlet to the sea, take a look at the map.

  2. #12
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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Have they declared independence?

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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Have they declared independence?
    No, not really. Mainly because they are being held back from doing so by the Western countries trying to appease the governments in Ankara and Baghdad (which is pretty short-sighted).

  4. #14
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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    There is no need to "take" anything from Armenia, which is far to the North.
    Also, I am proposing using the existing Kurdish autonomous region as a starting base precisely because it is relatively well-established.
    As for the idea that countries can't exist without an outlet to the sea, take a look at the map.
    You continually miss the point, they would need the cooperation of the very nations they want independence from. I do not see that happening without outside force. Your proposal is then unrealistic given the current political climate in the region.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    You continually miss the point, they would need the cooperation of the very nations they want independence from. I do not see that happening without outside force. Your proposal is then unrealistic given the current political climate in the region.
    I do not miss the point. You seem to miss the FACT that the Kurds already have their own autonomous government in Iraq and that the Iraqi government hasn't had control there for 2 decades.
    And the main point is that it might be more useful to cooperate with those who are our real allies in the fight against jihadi terrorism than with those who are - in the long term - our enemies.

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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Thats always been our dilemma. We supported the Kurds in Iraq, flying cover, providing food and medical supplies as well as force against the Iraqis. But...on the Turkish border Kurds are branded terrorists and we flew CAS missions while the Turkish F4s attacked them. Carve out a free Kurdistan in Northern Iraq and how long before that is used to expand to what they see as rightfully theirs in Turkey...and there goes our 'allies' there...

    Its delicate.

    At the end of the day...they all kind of need to settle their own boundary disputes.

  7. #17
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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    Virtually all of the countries that became independent in the past 60 years never existed before.
    Yes and virtually almost all of them are failing, failed and involved in civil wars or other conflicts.

    And why should Kurds in Turkey, Syria and Iran not have the right to self-determination?
    But where does it stop? What if the Creek Indians in the US wanted independence? Would you support that considering that would mean handing over most of the South to the new Creek nation?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Thats always been our dilemma. We supported the Kurds in Iraq, flying cover, providing food and medical supplies as well as force against the Iraqis. But...on the Turkish border Kurds are branded terrorists and we flew CAS missions while the Turkish F4s attacked them. Carve out a free Kurdistan in Northern Iraq and how long before that is used to expand to what they see as rightfully theirs in Turkey...and there goes our 'allies' there...

    Its delicate.

    At the end of the day...they all kind of need to settle their own boundary disputes.
    I recognize the issues are not clear-cut, not in the least because the Kurdish movements in Iraq and the Kurdish movements in Turkey don't get along.

    That being said, Turkey is no longer really an ally of the West and has been one of the main facilitators for various jihadi terrorist groups in Syria.

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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    But where does it stop? What if the Creek Indians in the US wanted independence? Would you support that considering that would mean handing over most of the South to the new Creek nation?
    According to you the Creek form the majority population in the Southern States of the US? That's news to me.

  10. #20
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    Re: Should the US (and other Western countries) recognize the Kurdish independence?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoVlaming View Post
    In view of the developments of the last couple of decades, should the US and other Western countries recognize the right of the Kurds to form an independent state, starting from the current Kurdish autonomous region in Iraq but eventually also encompassing the Kurdish areas of Syria, Turkey and Iran (if the Kurds in those areas choose to join such a state)?
    It would be wrong for the US, in contravention of NATO principles and practice, to recognize a sovereign Kurdish state that takes part of its existence from NATO member Turkey. It would be the equivalent of the US recognizing Quebec as a sovereign state against the wishes of the Canadian government.

    Rather than get more entrenched in other countries' nonsense, better for the US to dial back its interference.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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