View Poll Results: Should be on welfare be allowed to vote?

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    99 82.50%
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Thread: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

  1. #511
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Are you referring to when only the propertied could vote? Do you not realize that YES, their votes DID directly affect those who were not propertied?



    And how could such a system be implemented? Details, ma'am, not just a nebulous claim! In the modern era, how does one determine who could and could not vote on what? Just because things might have been (to your mind) possible and moral a century or two ago does NOT mean that such could be implemented today. That's why I'm pressing you for details.



    Ah. I smell a flat tax argument, and while the concept of flat taxes sounds really nice, in reality it sucks. Try telling the newly-divorced young woman with three kids and no good career ('cause she was a stay-at-home mom until that bastard of a husband left her) that she's got to pay the same rate of taxation as the rich do.



    Name a genocide - ANY genocide - and you'll find that it was "moral conviction" (often disguised as "religious conviction") that led to that genocide. One person's "moral convictions" is often another person's death sentence - ISIS is all about "moral conviction". To give you an even better example, it's "moral conviction" that fuels the marriage equality debate today.

    In other words, ya gotta watch that "moral convictions" claim...because the devil in the details of "moral conviction" is, "whose morals are we going to abide by?"
    I don't respond to chopped up posts. Sorry. It is too time consuming and too often removes any qualifiers from statements made or changes the meaning by taking it out of context.

    Please don't drag a lot of non sequitur and straw man arguments into it. My argument has been very narrowly defined here and to go veering off into different topics will derail the thread.

    My definition of morality must be very different from yours. My definition is based on what is right and wrong, and not what is used as an excuse to do whatever.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #512
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    My definition of morality must be very different from yours. My definition is based on what is right and wrong, and not what is used as an excuse to do whatever.
    You really don't understand, do you? What YOU personally think of as right or wrong doesn't automatically mesh with the opinions of other people. What YOU think of as 'morally right' may be repugnant to others. The examples of marriage equality and abortion are both great examples - if you think one side of the issue is "morally right", the other side automatically sees your opinion as "morally repugnant".

    Who decides, then, which is the true moral "right" or "wrong"? The tens of millions who support abortion rights, or the tens of millions who strongly oppose abortion? The tens of millions who support marriage equality for LGBT's, or the tens of millions who strongly oppose it?

    If you'll check, beyond support for our "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", the Constitution doesn't really say much about morality, about "right" and "wrong". Think about that.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You really don't understand, do you? What YOU personally think of as right or wrong doesn't automatically mesh with the opinions of other people. What YOU think of as 'morally right' may be repugnant to others. The examples of marriage equality and abortion are both great examples - if you think one side of the issue is "morally right", the other side automatically sees your opinion as "morally repugnant".

    Who decides, then, which is the true moral "right" or "wrong"? The tens of millions who support abortion rights, or the tens of millions who strongly oppose abortion? The tens of millions who support marriage equality for LGBT's, or the tens of millions who strongly oppose it?

    If you'll check, beyond support for our "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", the Constitution doesn't really say much about morality, about "right" and "wrong". Think about that.
    What you think I understand and what I understand is irrelevant to this discussion as is abortion, LGBT issues, or any other issues of the week.

    My argument is focused on one single concept which I believe is within the context and intent of the OP: The morality (or the ethics or the rightness or wrongness or the consequences) of people being able to vote themselves benefits at the expense of others.

    Focus on that and we can have a discussion.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #514
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry no, there premise his that if people have nothing at stake, then they will use their vote, by means of injustice to take from others.

    which is why voting is a privilege and not a right.
    Sorry, yes. The world has evolved beyond simple property ownership as "having something at stake".

    Regardless, the premise, while not wholly invalid, is still incorrect... and/or at least incomplete... in it's simpleness. One, virtually everybody votes their own interest. Two, rich people lobby for things to be done in their favor at the expense of others, via injustice if expedient, hence "having something at stake" is hardly an ethical inducing motive.

    Madison wasn't necessarily wrong, per se, but he was wearing blinders. He wasn't considering what he as a flaw in some classes with which he disapproved as being common human nature.
    Donald Trump is the Joe Isuzu of politics.

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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    There is no inequality in society unless the wealth held by some prevents others from acquiring wealth. And nobody here has yet made a good argument for how the rich are preventing the poor from becoming rich just because the rich are rich.

    The most dangerous inequality in society is to give power to people who suffer no negative consequences of any kind and in fact enrich themselves by what they can require of others at the expense of those others.
    It does now though. It is much easier for someone who has money to make money. It is much easier for those who control certain properties or assets to restrict how much others can attain of those assets, especially if they have the power of government backing them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It does now though. It is much easier for someone who has money to make money. It is much easier for those who control certain properties or assets to restrict how much others can attain of those assets, especially if they have the power of government backing them.
    But the fact that some find it easier to make money does not necessarily make it harder for others to make money. The fact that some are successful in one aspect of business and it is difficult for others to break into that particular business does not prevent people from looking for other ways to make money and acquire property. There are only so many positions in the top law firms, so many professorships in the universities, so many openings in upper management at G.E. There is only so much bottom land in West Virginia, and only so much beachfront property on the coast. But in a free market system in which people have liberty, if a door is closed in one place, there is nothing stopping us from looking for a different one.

    Even in less free societies, industrious people seem to manage to find positives. In Medieval Europe, for example, Jews were forbidden to own land. So they went into law and banking and science and shipping instead and prospered that way, a legacy that has continued into modern times. And then they were often resented and demonized because they were so successful and prosperous.

    But this topic is not about lack of opportunity. It is the danger of one segment of society assuming right to the legally and ethically acquired property of another segment of society. And one segment of society being able to vote itself what it wants at the expense of the other. I should not be able to hinder you in pursing your ambitions and dreams. And I should not be able to vote to get what you have legally and ethically earned just because I didn't do that for whatever reason.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #517
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But the fact that some find it easier to make money does not necessarily make it harder for others to make money. The fact that some are successful in one aspect of business and it is difficult for others to break into that particular business does not prevent people from looking for other ways to make money and acquire property. There are only so many positions in the top law firms, so many professorships in the universities, so many openings in upper management at G.E. There is only so much bottom land in West Virginia, and only so much beachfront property on the coast. But in a free market system in which people have liberty, if a door is closed in one place, there is nothing stopping us from looking for a different one.

    Even in less free societies, industrious people seem to manage to find positives. In Medieval Europe, for example, Jews were forbidden to own land. So they went into law and banking and science and shipping instead and prospered that way, a legacy that has continued into modern times. And then they were often resented and demonized because they were so successful and prosperous.

    But this topic is not about lack of opportunity. It is the danger of one segment of society assuming right to the legally and ethically acquired property of another segment of society. And one segment of society being able to vote itself what it wants at the expense of the other. I should not be able to hinder you in pursing your ambitions and dreams. And I should not be able to vote to get what you have legally and ethically earned just because I didn't do that for whatever reason.
    Except stripping the poor of a vote does hinder them in their pursuit of their ambitions and dreams. No politician is going to cater to a group that does not have a vote.

    It is well known in psychology that most peoples empathy does not extend outside of their field of vision. The rich would have no problem (and I state this with certainty because it has happened in the past, and continues to happen today) in enacting laws that secures their own property and wealth at the expense of those less fortunate.
    "Education is the only thing you can do that will change society. Everything else is just a band-aid." - Jacqueline de Chollet
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  8. #518
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Except stripping the poor of a vote does hinder them in their pursuit of their ambitions and dreams. No politician is going to cater to a group that does not have a vote.

    It is well known in psychology that most peoples empathy does not extend outside of their field of vision. The rich would have no problem (and I state this with certainty because it has happened in the past, and continues to happen today) in enacting laws that secures their own property and wealth at the expense of those less fortunate.
    I cannot imagine how securing one's own property could hurt anybody. And the way to make the vote honorable and honest is to ensure that everybody who votes shares in the benefits or consequences of their vote. We don't WANT politicians catering to anybody. Politicians should represent everybody's interests and not just the special interest group who keeps him/her in office.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #519
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Sorry, yes. The world has evolved beyond simple property ownership as "having something at stake".

    Regardless, the premise, while not wholly invalid, is still incorrect... and/or at least incomplete... in it's simpleness. One, virtually everybody votes their own interest. Two, rich people lobby for things to be done in their favor at the expense of others, via injustice if expedient, hence "having something at stake" is hardly an ethical inducing motive.

    Madison wasn't necessarily wrong, per se, but he was wearing blinders. He wasn't considering what he as a flaw in some classes with which he disapproved as being common human nature.
    i have made two points which are fact.......voting is not right..because voting is in the hands of states governments making it a privilege ....that the constitution does not create rights, and the USSC to my knowledge as ever ruled on a case recognizing a right to vote.

    second point.......that people use their vote to vote for politicians who promise them material goods and services....

    lastly .....you are trying to make the connection of voting and lobbying and they are not the same...they are not.

    on madison ...who makes the case that history proves that those with no property will used the power of voting my means of injustice to take property from those that do.

  10. #520
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So what? So are seventeen year olds and they can't vote.
    !7 year olds are not adults.

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