View Poll Results: Should be on welfare be allowed to vote?

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  • Yes

    99 82.50%
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    15 12.50%
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    7 5.83%
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Thread: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

  1. #501
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    as i said, when you are string something together talk to me.

    but i cant respond to something which is all over the place, and incoherent
    lol!...IRONY!
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    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  2. #502
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Read my lips. I have not promoted a system here. I have simply offered a rationale for one system over another. And the rationale I have offered is mostly an argument to PREVENT some from benefitting themselves at the expense of others.
    Promoting a system and offering a rationale for a system differ? Semantics.

    The only alternative to the rationale that you have offered (that it is unfair that some people don't pay taxes but can still contribute to national decisions) is a system whereby some people are denied the ability to vote, based on arbitrary criteria (which you have yet to offer).

    That system is wrong.
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

  3. #503
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Why don't you offer a rebuttal to what I actually said instead of translating it into something I didn't say?
    This was your argument:

    "My argument is based strictly on the ethics of Citizen A being able to vote for Citizen B to support him/her. My argument is based strictly on the ethics of those who will incur no consequence of any kind from their vote having ability to vote for how much in taxes others will pay, etc.

    My argument is purely philosophical, but it goes to the very heart of what the structure of our social contract and resulting government should be. There is an injustice in a system that allows one group to vote itself benefits at the expense of others."
    Apparently, you didn't think through the implications of your argument - and I pointed out those implications. It's flatly impossible to vote on issues that affect (and hopefully benefit) one's own economic class without affecting in one way or another the other economic class(es).

    There is NO WAY that the rich could vote on issues that affect only themselves without their votes also affecting the poor. There is NO WAY that the poor could vote on issues that affect only themselves without their votes also affecting the rich.

    The concept you present is an impossibility. And even if it were indeed possible, it would certainly lead to places none of us want to go.

    There are times when simple pragmatism must trump one's personal moral convictions. This is one of them.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #504
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Moderator's Warning:
    Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]Stop sniping at each other and address the topic.

  5. #505
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    FFS! Your previous statement that started this entire exchange between us runs completely counter to this statement:

    But the fact is, the more prosperous and productive others are, the more opportunity there is to increase their own wealth. You don't prosper by buying and selling property when nobody can afford to participate in the process.

    You are arguing for the EXPANSION of participation in property ownership/egalitarianism and away from oligarchy/monopoly/domination of wealth. You don't get to 2-faced argue that property owners should have greater standing when it comes to VOTING.

    Nothing is going to get you to see the irony of this position, the wealthy gain all the time by restricting the voice of those less wealthy.
    Nothing is going to get me to change an argument I believe in very much and that is supportable with reason and logic. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]Stop sniping at each other and address the topic.
    But Sarge! I've got 'im in my sights, but now you're telling me not to take the shot? Now I gotta go play nice with the guy? That's in violation of President Marco Rubio's executive order he gave in 2017 that we're not allowed to ever use diplomacy! They do what we say, or we shoot them! Sarge, let me take the shot!!!!
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    But Sarge! I've got 'im in my sights, but now you're telling me not to take the shot? Now I gotta go play nice with the guy? That's in violation of President Marco Rubio's executive order he gave in 2017 that we're not allowed to ever use diplomacy! They do what we say, or we shoot them! Sarge, let me take the shot!!!!
    Moderator's Warning:
    Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]Don't quote mod boxes.

  8. #508
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    This was your argument:



    Apparently, you didn't think through the implications of your argument - and I pointed out those implications. It's flatly impossible to vote on issues that affect (and hopefully benefit) one's own economic class without affecting in one way or another the other economic class(es).

    There is NO WAY that the rich could vote on issues that affect only themselves without their votes also affecting the poor. There is NO WAY that the poor could vote on issues that affect only themselves without their votes also affecting the rich.

    The concept you present is an impossibility. And even if it were indeed possible, it would certainly lead to places none of us want to go.

    There are times when simple pragmatism must trump one's personal moral convictions. This is one of them.
    I do not believe it is an impossibility. I believe we once had a system in which people were not allowed to vote themselves benefits at the expense of others. I would like that system restored. In such a system, if you vote for taxes to be raised, you are voting for your own taxes to be raised too and not just the other guy. In such a system, if you vote for the government to provide you with a certain benefit, everybody gets the same benefit without respect for demographics or socioeconomic circumstances.

    And I will never agree to vote for government in which pragmatism trumps moral convictions.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #509
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    lol!...IRONY!
    proof positive....incoherent

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Still cannot come to terms with the fact that govt did restrict property ownership by minorities and was only reversed by law. Magical "natural rights" did not automatically cause anything to happen.

    Straw.

    Uh, again, get out of the tower and come back to Earth, your magic is powerless.

    You are getting closer to the truth, while still ignoring the actual process and chronology of the establishment and protection of those rights.

    Edit:

    Further, on what logic therefore can you make the argument that a class (those that do not open property) can have their right to vote infringed upon?

  10. #510
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    Re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I do not believe it is an impossibility. I believe we once had a system in which people were not allowed to vote themselves benefits at the expense of others.
    Are you referring to when only the propertied could vote? Do you not realize that YES, their votes DID directly affect those who were not propertied?

    I would like that system restored. In such a system, if you vote for taxes to be raised, you are voting for your own taxes to be raised too and not just the other guy.
    And how could such a system be implemented? Details, ma'am, not just a nebulous claim! In the modern era, how does one determine who could and could not vote on what? Just because things might have been (to your mind) possible and moral a century or two ago does NOT mean that such could be implemented today. That's why I'm pressing you for details.

    In such a system, if you vote for the government to provide you with a certain benefit, everybody gets the same benefit without respect for demographics or socioeconomic circumstances.
    Ah. I smell a flat tax argument, and while the concept of flat taxes sounds really nice, in reality it sucks. Try telling the newly-divorced young woman with three kids and no good career ('cause she was a stay-at-home mom until that bastard of a husband left her) that she's got to pay the same rate of taxation as the rich do.

    And I will never agree to vote for government in which pragmatism trumps moral convictions.
    Name a genocide - ANY genocide - and you'll find that it was "moral conviction" (often disguised as "religious conviction") that led to that genocide. One person's "moral convictions" is often another person's death sentence - ISIS is all about "moral conviction". To give you an even better example, it's "moral conviction" that fuels the marriage equality debate today.

    In other words, ya gotta watch that "moral convictions" claim...because the devil in the details of "moral conviction" is, "whose morals are we going to abide by?"
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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