View Poll Results: Should be on welfare be allowed to vote?

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  • Yes

    99 82.50%
  • No

    15 12.50%
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    7 5.83%
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    11 9.17%
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Thread: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

  1. #361
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No, everyone does not pay taxes.
    Practically everybody pays some state taxes and majority (including poor) pay federal taxes.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Most of that 49% are seniors on Medicare and Social Security.
    And it's not like either major party has indicate any significant desire to remove Social Security for those recieving it CURRENTLY, which are a large part of that 49%.

    Those people paid into the program. Both sides largely agree, you don't strip that away from them.

    Even the Republicans wanting to see Social Security done away with, it's generally talked about from a sense of it ending for those in their 30's and younger right now from what I've seen. Which makes the notion of pointing out that 49% and suggesting they won't vote for one party because that party will take their thing away a bit ridiculous when it comes to social security. Indeed, it'd probably be more people in the 51% that would be saying "NO!" in terms of the attempts to end social security in the fashion it's usually talked about, because of a desire by them to see it in the future.

  3. #363
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm talking about all taxes. There are people that depend entirely on another person and never buy anything or buy things with someone else's money.
    Sure there are. They are called children and they can't even vote.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  4. #364
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why? How does being an American citizen mean that you get the right to decide how the government interferes in the lives of others?
    That standard applies to literally everybody. I don;t care who you are or how much in taxes youpay, what gives you the right to vote on anything that affects me?


    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No, everyone does not pay taxes.
    Yes, they do.


    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpea View Post
    Income taxes. Not everyone pays income taxes.
    Taxes are taxes, a revenue stream.


    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm talking about all taxes. There are people that depend entirely on another person and never buy anything or buy things with someone else's money.
    OMG! That's the finest hair splitting I have ever seen.

    Even if they don;t spend the money them self, someone else does in their stead.


    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    They are about 3x more likely to vote Democrat than Republican. 300%!

    Is a 300% relative frequency not very telling? Or are you trying to obfuscate?
    *IF* they vote at all, which is less likely... historically. Not as significant as you're trying to portray.
    Oy vey!

  5. #365
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    That standard applies to literally everybody. I don;t care who you are or how much in taxes youpay, what gives you the right to vote on anything that affects me?
    Now you're getting it.

    *IF* they vote at all, which is less likely... historically. Not as significant as you're trying to portray.
    They are less than half as likely to vote as higher income groups. That doesn't make up for the 300% greater propensity to vote Democrat.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Yes, they do.

    OMG! That's the finest hair splitting I have ever seen.

    Even if they don;t spend the money them self, someone else does in their stead.
    So someone that depends on another person to survive is still paying taxes? Since when?

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So this is just totally a coincidence, right?

    I actually find the graph amazingly interesting, but not at all surprising.

    First, there's a steady downward trend for Republicans in all five categories in 2009. That doesn't really surprise me given the "wave" feeling of the Obama election back then. I imagine it's changed a bit since then.

    Second, what's more interesting to me is looking right around 2004. And the numbers don't shock me. There's a big split between both in the lowest, with Democrats on top. It closes a bit in the second and then by the middle picture things are pretty much dead even. Meanwhile, from the other end, it's a similar big split at the highest, but with the Republicans on top. And it closes a bit in the second to last picture as it moves to the middle.

    So in general, one could suggest that those with less money tend to more towards Democratic policies and those with money moeny tend more towards Republican policies.

    Neither of those things are bad. And the flawed premise of this thread is that seemingly those in the first two boxes are somehow voting for people who will use the government to help them and thus shouldn't be able to vote.....but that somehow those on the other side should be able to vote because they're not doing that?

    Ridiculous.

    People from the lowest quintile to the highest are likely going to vote for the individual who is most likely going to push for the government to do things that will help themselves. Few people truly vote for a purely alturistic purpose.

    Someone in the lowest may be voting to get the government to funnel more money into welfare. On the flip side, someone on the highest may be voting to get the government to funnel more money into defense so their government contracting job can continue to make bank. In both instances, they're attempting to vote for someone that will use the government to funnel the tax payers money into a direction that will benefit them. That's what voting is for many people, and that's true regardless of which quintile they are a part of.

    Attempting to stop that from happening on one side, but not the other, is not some defense of liberty or an attempt to make the system fair or to stop "takers"....it's simply a pathetic political ploy to disenfranchise those who disagree with you politically.

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Sure there are. They are called children and they can't even vote.
    Or stay at home moms, losers that still live with their parents, trust fund babies, etc.

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Here here!

    You detailed a good plan. Let's do it. None of these people should be voting.
    Add in anyone obtaining social security, anyone set to earn social security under the current laws, anyone on disability (including veterans), anyone on medicare, anyone with a child in public schools, anyone recieving a government pention (military included).

    I'd have to keep thinking. There's a lot of people who have the potential to use their vote to control the purse strings of the government in a fashion that benefits them financially.

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure if you actually follow that line of thinking we'll wind up with a country where there's no one of legal voting age that actually can vote.

  10. #370
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I actually find the graph amazingly interesting, but not at all surprising.

    First, there's a steady downward trend for Republicans in all five categories in 2009. That doesn't really surprise me given the "wave" feeling of the Obama election back then. I imagine it's changed a bit since then.

    Second, what's more interesting to me is looking right around 2004. And the numbers don't shock me. There's a big split between both in the lowest, with Democrats on top. It closes a bit in the second and then by the middle picture things are pretty much dead even. Meanwhile, from the other end, it's a similar big split at the highest, but with the Republicans on top. And it closes a bit in the second to last picture as it moves to the middle.

    So in general, one could suggest that those with less money tend to more towards Democratic policies and those with money moeny tend more towards Republican policies.

    Neither of those things are bad. And the flawed premise of this thread is that seemingly those in the first two boxes are somehow voting for people who will use the government to help them and thus shouldn't be able to vote.....but that somehow those on the other side should be able to vote because they're not doing that?

    Ridiculous.

    People from the lowest quintile to the highest are likely going to vote for the individual who is most likely going to push for the government to do things that will help themselves. Few people truly vote for a purely alturistic purpose.

    Someone in the lowest may be voting to get the government to funnel more money into welfare. On the flip side, someone on the highest may be voting to get the government to funnel more money into defense so their government contracting job can continue to make bank. In both instances, they're attempting to vote for someone that will use the government to funnel the tax payers money into a direction that will benefit them. That's what voting is for many people, and that's true regardless of which quintile they are a part of.
    The point is that people vote for what personally benefits them, which is exactly the problem with democracy. I'm for shrinking the franchise as much as possible, so that we can separate the government from society. I don't want people to assume that we get the government that we voted for with democracy. If they don't like the government, then they should fight against it, not pathetically accept it because the majority has spoken. Mob rule does not make rule ethical.

    Attempting to stop that from happening on one side, but not the other, is not some defense of liberty or an attempt to make the system fair or to stop "takers"....it's simply a pathetic political ploy to disenfranchise those who disagree with you politically.
    As far as it goes, I'd rather live under a political system that agrees with me personally instead of being forced to go along with one that I disagree with entirely.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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