View Poll Results: Should be on welfare be allowed to vote?

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    99 82.50%
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    15 12.50%
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    7 5.83%
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    11 9.17%
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Thread: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

  1. #351
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Are you aware that amendments are added to the Constitution to change things that the Framers originally did not add, or were not in approval of? The Constitution was written in 1787 by a bunch of rich white guys. It was amended to allow people of color to vote in 1870 (but blacks still had to fight for years to vote) and it was amended in 1920 for women to be able to vote.
    It should be noted that neither group you mentioned was ever constitutionally barred from voting. Originally the only reason women couldn't vote was because they didn't own property, which was a social issue, not a legal issue.
    Last edited by Henrin; 04-24-15 at 11:27 AM.

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, you don't know any of that. In fact, the very fact that people on welfare vote for all different kinds of people, including those who would like to end welfare proves you wrong.

    I said nothing in the part you responded to last about the poor. Why did you go back to the poor? I was talking about the wealthy, those not on the welfare programs that we know people really mean when they say "should those on welfare not be allowed to vote?".
    So this is just totally a coincidence, right?


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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When will you get it through your head that the Supreme Court can say just about anything it wants to say and if they declare what constitutes a republican form of government is a political question - as is almost everything that comes before the Congress in one way or the other - that is perfectly fine.

    That finding in no way shape or form supports your ridiculous claims about the 17th Amendment violating a republican form of government. In fact, since it was done via Constitutional Amendment it only makes it even more definitive that those who did so believed they were NOT violating the Constitutional mandate for a republican form of government. Every Congressman who voted for the 17th Amendment did so believing they were not violating that mandate. Every state legislative official who voted to ratify it believed it did not violate the Constitutional mandate.

    Of course it is a political question and it was answered very clearly, very definitively and very loudly. And the answer given says YOU ARE WRONG in your beliefs.

    You really have never gotten the point EB that ANYTHING in the CONSTITUTION can be changed through the Amendment process. And that includes what constitutes a republican form of government. And if the 17th Amendment changed that from the views of Madison or anybody else - it does not matter because the Constitution gives us the right to do just that. And if todays form of what constitutes a republican form of government violates the precepts and beliefs of madison or any other Founding Father or even ALL of the Founding Fathers - it is right and proper since it was done via the very mechanism of Amendment they gave us.

    Now you can either accept that as reality or you can deny reality and dwell in a self imposed dissociative state of delusion.

  4. #354
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That's not an argument.
    I'm not arguing with you, nor am I debating you. When you pull quotes from LBJ, then you've already made up your mind, and not much will change it.
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except I didn't give a good reason for it; it being disallowing just people on Welfare from voting.

    If you want to say the notions form de Tocqueville and Franklin are legitimate reasons to deny people the ability to vote, then the only reasonable choice would be to disallow anyone who is gaining a benefit from the government to be disallowed to vote.
    Here here!

    There's no reasonable explanation for JUST disallowing those obtaining a welfare check to do it....but not disallowing everyone who works for any business or university that recieves government funding in some fashion to vote. To disallow anyone who has a government college loan from voting. To disallow anyone who is a government employee from voting. To disallow employees of government contractors from voting. And on and on.

    Utilizing elections as a means of voting into power those who will use the coffers of the United States to give you more money in some fashion is not an endevour limited in scope to those recieving welfare.

    So if you're going to say the notions I mentioned are "legitimate reasons" to limit who can vote, the only reasonable choice is to evenly enforce said limitation. Otherwise, you're not actually limiting peoples votes for those reasons...you're limiting them for purely partisan political reasons. You'd be using those political philosophers and figures words simply as cover in an effort to obfuscate your true purpose and dishonestly paint your effots as some noble cause of liberty when it's really standard fare political jockying.
    You detailed a good plan. Let's do it. None of these people should be voting.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    I'm not arguing with you, nor am I debating you. When you pull quotes from LBJ, then you've already made up your mind, and not much will change it.
    Lol, and you call me ideologically entrenched, yet you won't even discuss the matter!

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm talking about all taxes. There are people that depend entirely on another person and never buy anything or buy things with someone else's money.
    Yes, they're called trust-fund babies.
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So this is just totally a coincidence, right?

    And yet your graphs clearly show that there are still people who vote for Republicans in the lowest brackets, just as there are still people who vote for Democrats in the highest brackets. This is because people do not fit into small little stereotypical boxes that you try to put them in. They are simply not all the same. And that includes when it comes to what their values are.

    You claimed that everyone would vote for more wealth if given the opportunity. Yet there are those on Welfare who vote to stifle their income by voting for people who would like to limit, reduce, or completely do away with Welfare programs for the poor.
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But. . . .there is one other argument to be made. (Disclaimer: I am not uncharitable or unsympathetic to the poor. I devote a great deal of my time and talent and personal resources up close and personal with the poor.)

    You may bend over backwards to accommodate the guest in your home and that makes you a good and gracious host. But how would you feel about it if that guest then assumed power to dictate to you what his sleeping accommodations will be, what food and drink you will serve at whatever expense, and that his every need be met?

    How is that different from those who cannot or will not work for what they have dictating to those who must provide for them how much the others will provide?
    The United States is not your "home". YOU, or any other individual citizen...is not the "sole" owner. Those who do not pay taxes into the system (which, in and of itself, is a dishonest misnomer) are not "guests", they are co-owners whether or not you like it. The fact that you see that analogy as legitimate inherently indicates a flaw in your thinking.

    I'd perhaps be more understanding if people were somehow claiming that this stance should be taken across the board. That not only that those on welfare shouldn't be able to vote, but that the WEIGHT of ones vote should somehow inherently be tied to how much taxes they pay. Indeed, the guy paying millions of dollars into taxes is being forced to "provide" things like roads, schools, police, national protection, etc for YOU and others who are likely not providing anywhere near the same level as him....should we allow his vote to count 100 times yours for electoral purposes while we're simultaneously disallowing those on welfare from voting?

    Will those on welfare often try to vote for what's going to be best for their life and their situation, not what's necessarily "best for the country"? Absolutely. Guess wha. Middle class or upper class people, paying a good bit of taxes, are going to be doing the same thing. That's what voting is. And that's a right as a CITIZEN people should have...and not one that should be taken away simply because you think that the way THEY benefit of the government is inherently bad, but the way YOU benefit from the government is perfectly okay.

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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And yet your graphs clearly show that there are still people who vote for Republicans in the lowest brackets, just as there are still people who vote for Democrats in the highest brackets. This is because people do not fit into small little stereotypical boxes that you try to put them in. They are simply not all the same. And that includes when it comes to what their values are.
    They are about 3x more likely to vote Democrat than Republican. 300%!

    You claimed that everyone would vote for more wealth if given the opportunity. Yet there are those on Welfare who vote to stifle their income by voting for people who would like to limit, reduce, or completely do away with Welfare programs for the poor.
    Is a 300% relative frequency not very telling? Or are you trying to obfuscate?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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