View Poll Results: Should be on welfare be allowed to vote?

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  • Yes

    99 82.50%
  • No

    15 12.50%
  • Other

    7 5.83%
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    11 9.17%
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Thread: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

  1. #281
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    OK- What form of Govt do you refer or prefer.
    Govts, those in power never lessen or relinquish the powers they have.
    What form of Govt. Possibly the ancient Roman version of Dictator?
    If we must have government (and I'm not convinced that we do), then we would be far better served with a monarchy than a democracy. As a caveat, I must add that these kingdoms should be as small as possible. The king of the entire United States would likely be a tyrant.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #282
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The point still stands. If the premise is that poor people just go to the polls to vote themselves more handouts from rich people, then why do only 41% of them manage to vote? Better than 60% of the middle class votes and they are by far the largest demographic.
    The point doesn't stand. If you have 10x as many people in one group, and only 50% of that group shows up, then that group is dominating and it's not even close.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #283
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The point doesn't stand. If you have 10x as many people in one group, and only 50% of that group shows up, then that group is dominating and it's not even close.
    We don't have 10x as many people earning under 20k a year as we do earning over 75k a year. Do the math, poor people hardly have any electoral influence if just 40% of them bother to vote:



    We don't have a safety-net in this country because poor people voted themselves one, we have a safety-net in this country because even most wealthy people think we should have one.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #284
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And the vast majority of the public have shown themselves irresponsible when it comes to most issue. Why else do we run such large deficits that we can never pay back? It's because politicians are trying to win votes and have absolutely no regard for the long term health of the people they represent.
    If it could be proven that only those voters who don't pay federal income taxes orno state property taxes voted for those politicians who appropriated funds that increased the deficit, I think most of us would agree either it's time to revoke or restrict their voting rights. But since you and I both know voting is not a limited nor exclusive participatory action within the political process I'd say this is a fantasy at best and a foolhardy notion at worse.

    Now, I would agree with you that there are some politicians who honestly believe that "debt is good" and will continue to vote on appropriations bills with no regard for how such spending will play out for future budgets, you can't blame to voters for that.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  5. #285
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If people did not vote for the people who voted for that act, then they might be a little more outrage about this spying being forced on them without their consent.
    Again you speak as if the politicians who brought the Patriot Act forward were voted into office exclusively by a select group of voters, voters who presumably knew in advance that this was the kind of legislation they expected/desired to come out of Congress. I could somewhat understand your perspective if we were discussing say...Obamacare...during the 2012 presidential election where Republicans pledged to repeal that law and the voters voted nearly in lock-step for Republican candidates based primarily on this campaign promise, but that's not always the case. It's rare to see voters tow the party line this way for or against a measure at the Congressional level. For singular campaigns, i.e., mayor, Governor, President, it's a completely different story. But not when it comes to a body of elected officials.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  6. #286
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    We don't have 10x as many people earning under 20k a year as we do earning over 75k a year. Do the math, poor people hardly have any electoral influence if just 40% of them bother to vote:



    We don't have a safety-net in this country because poor people voted themselves one, we have a safety-net in this country because even most wealthy people think we should have one.
    No, but by the look of it we have about 3x as many people earning less than 75k per year than more than 75k. That tells me that unless this group is 3x less likely to vote than other groups, then they're going to decide elections.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #287
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    If it could be proven that only those voters who don't pay federal income taxes orno state property taxes voted for those politicians who appropriated funds that increased the deficit, I think most of us would agree either it's time to revoke or restrict their voting rights. But since you and I both know voting is not a limited nor exclusive participatory action within the political process I'd say this is a fantasy at best and a foolhardy notion at worse.

    Now, I would agree with you that there are some politicians who honestly believe that "debt is good" and will continue to vote on appropriations bills with no regard for how such spending will play out for future budgets, you can't blame to voters for that.
    Sure I can, because politicians make these promises explicitly because they know it will win them votes.

    You have to realize that my point is this thread is to critique democracy more than to say that the poor exclusively should not vote.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #288
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Again you speak as if the politicians who brought the Patriot Act forward were voted into office exclusively by a select group of voters, voters who presumably knew in advance that this was the kind of legislation they expected/desired to come out of Congress. I could somewhat understand your perspective if we were discussing say...Obamacare...during the 2012 presidential election where Republicans pledged to repeal that law and the voters voted nearly in lock-step for Republican candidates based primarily on this campaign promise, but that's not always the case. It's rare to see voters tow the party line this way for or against a measure at the Congressional level. For singular campaigns, i.e., mayor, Governor, President, it's a completely different story. But not when it comes to a body of elected officials.
    Polls that I've seen show majority support for the Patriot Act, or at most just minor changes. And people are okay with this because they think that with democracy that the government represents them. You tell me how you think something like the Patriot Act would go over when only rich landowners can vote.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #289
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    And I think you should re-read what I wrote again and again until you can see what is actually there and is actually said. And what is actually there is not a suggestion that people in a financial bind should lose their rights.
    I read your post very thoroughly (post #183) and what you essentially said was:

    How dare these voters who pay no federal income tax have a say not only in whether or not said tax should be increased, but how those tax dollars should be spent when they haven't paid a dime toward the revenue stream.

    How dare these voters who pay no state property tax have a say not only in whether or not said property tax should be increased, but how those tax dollars should be spent when they haven't paid a dime toward the revenue stream.

    How dare these voters be allowed to vote for those politicians who do nothing except vote to redistribute wealth by taking from the rich and giving my money to the poor.
    I heard you loud and clear. Problem is since we live in a "representative republic" where the majority essentially wins yet everyone is "equally represented and equally share in the burden to promote the general welfare of the nation", it's impossible to restrict votes at the federal level to count for certain things like tax increases or how funds will be used once appropriated and against other measures that may or may not require congressional appropriations.

    Although some issues are placed on the ballot at the state and local levels to ensure fair voter representation (because as we well know there should be no taxation without representation), you'd never be able to restrict the vote to only those individuals who pay property taxes for home ownership. Why? Because even those individuals who rent property as their place of residence pay indirectly towards the property tax of the landlord/home owner.

    So, again I say perhaps you really should sit down and rethink your position here.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  10. #290
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    re: Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?[W:504]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I read your post very thoroughly (post #183) and what you essentially said was:



    I heard you loud and clear. Problem is since we live in a "representative republic" where the majority essentially wins yet everyone is "equally represented and equally share in the burden to promote the general welfare of the nation", it's impossible to restrict votes at the federal level to count for certain things like tax increases or how funds will be used once appropriated and against other measures that may or may not require congressional appropriations.

    Although some issues are placed on the ballot at the state and local levels to ensure fair voter representation (because as we well know there should be no taxation without representation), you'd never be able to restrict the vote to only those individuals who pay property taxes for home ownership. Why? Because even those individuals who rent property as their place of residence pay indirectly towards the property tax of the landlord/home owner.

    So, again I say perhaps you really should sit down and rethink your position here.
    And I think a chill pill might be in order for some. What you interpreted as what I said and what I actually said are very different. But do have a nice day.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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