View Poll Results: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

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Thread: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

  1. #241
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    What does cognitive ability, as you put it, have to do with basic rights such as not being property, being allowed to live and not be dealt with cruelly?

    Because you know damn well that humans with very low cognitive or social intelligence (newborns, mentally retarded, down syndrome, aspberger's) are guaranteed these rights, simply by way of being OUR species in the 21st century. Such people used to be butchered or left to die on a hill. Was that wrong? Today we condemn it. Where does "cognitive ability" = not property fit into

    einstein:table as IQ57:dog?

    I have a much more simplified and imo consistent standard of property and respect: Is it a living creature or not?
    "Not suffering from cruelty" is not a right, it is a protection by the law and it will stay that way.
    Even flowers are protected by the law in some cases.

    When you're saying "grant them rights" you're really saying "let my dog vote for a US president", "let my dog go to school like other humans do" and "let my dog have a fair trial". It's ridiculously absurd. Dogs aren't persons. The people you've referred to who suffer mental disorders are still people, even if their IQ is lower they're still more intelligent and more emotional than dogs are. As to newborns, they grow up to become people - so there's your difference.
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  2. #242
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    I thought I was the one who set the higher bar. You were the one talking about frogs.
    I was, but my argument is that no animals deserve rights. That all is equal between frogs and dogs in the rights deserving department.
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  3. #243
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    This issue is very important to me, and I would like to hear others opinions. I think this is a very important issue that doesn't get the attention that it deserves.
    Animal rights is the idea that some, or all, non-human animals are entitled to the possession of their own lives, and that their most basic interests – such as the lack of suffering – should be afforded the same consideration as similar interests of human beings.
    We have no way of knowing that human suffering is type-identical to animal suffering since the very experience of 'suffering' is experientially contingent. And we only know what it is like to suffer as humans, not as other animals.

    And it is not a universal moral principle to eschew all suffering at all times for all groups.

    I think animal rights activists should just be honest and admit their desire for animal protection is emotional, or arises out of empathy; this is a perfectly fine view (emotivism).

  4. #244
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Then human newborns or mental retards don't deserve rights either, i take it?
    As someone pointed out to me earlier in the thread, the exceptions don't disprove the rule. They deserve rights because they are human.

    In a way, declaration of rights such as the constitution are in place to protect the vulnerable among us, whether they appreciate or conceptualize those rights or not. I don't see why that shouldn't extend to non human life
    Because right serve no purpose to animals. Because whether we legislate protection or rights, it's still subject to the whim of the lawmakers at the time, and animals can't tell the difference. Because it then becomes a question of do bacteria deserve the same right as trees? Do trees deserve the same rights as insects? Do insects deserve the same rights as vertebrates? Do fish deserve the same rights as birds? Do birds deserve the same rights as mammals? Do wild mice deserve the same rights as domesticated dogs?

    Where, exactly, do you put your arbitrary line for rights, and why does it go there?
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  5. #245
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    So, you must also be against voting rights for our animal friends.
    I think the dogcatchers union would be against that.
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    I think people/society has taken the humane treatment of animals to an unreasonable level. It's one thing to aspire to see that animals are not treated cruelly or killed in cruel ways, but to attempt to confer rights upon them like humans makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  7. #247
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    "Not suffering from cruelty" is not a right, it is a protection by the law and it will stay that way.
    Even flowers are protected by the law in some cases.

    When you're saying "grant them rights" you're really saying "let my dog vote for a US president", "let my dog go to school like other humans do" and "let my dog have a fair trial". It's ridiculously absurd. Dogs aren't persons. The people you've referred to who suffer mental disorders are still people, even if their IQ is lower they're still more intelligent and more emotional than dogs are. As to newborns, they grow up to become people - so there's your difference.
    This really is a strawman argument. Even among humans, rights aren't exactly the same. Adults have more rights than children, citizens have more rights than non citizens, convicted felons have fewer rights than others. Nobody is arguing that animal rights be exactly the same as human rights.

    Oh, and newborns aren't "people" until they grow up?

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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This really is a strawman argument. Even among humans, rights aren't exactly the same. Adults have more rights than children, citizens have more rights than non citizens, convicted felons have fewer rights than others. Nobody is arguing that animal rights be exactly the same as human rights.

    Oh, and newborns aren't "people" until they grow up?
    I've meant adult persons.

    And what rights do you believe your dog should have, if we consider that the law already protects animals from cruelty?
    The right to remain silent? The freedom of speech? Give me a break.
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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    "Not suffering from cruelty" is not a right, it is a protection by the law and it will stay that way.
    Even flowers are protected by the law in some cases.

    When you're saying "grant them rights" you're really saying "let my dog vote for a US president", "let my dog go to school like other humans do" and "let my dog have a fair trial". It's ridiculously absurd. Dogs aren't persons. The people you've referred to who suffer mental disorders are still people, even if their IQ is lower they're still more intelligent and more emotional than dogs are. As to newborns, they grow up to become people - so there's your difference.
    Everyone who's been to a public school has seen some kid who just sits there and drools and has no idea where the **** they are. That wasn't what i was saying at all anyway. Dogs have no use for human education, just as humans have no use for training to catch frisbees

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    Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I've meant adult persons.

    And what rights do you believe your dog should have, if we consider that the law already protects animals from cruelty?
    The right to remain silent? The freedom of speech? Give me a break.
    Please, you and others started with "they are only property, they don't have more rights than a table," and we are countering that no, they should have rights that tables do not. Nowhere did you or we mention freedom of speech and this other crap

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