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Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?

Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?


  • Total voters
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It may not be patriotic but it sure as hell is the intelligent thing to do since American wages and worker entitlements have pretty much gone sky high that they are uncompetitive.

You say it is intelligent, but then we have to consider why China is perceived as a threat to U.S. hegemony now.
 
Exactly.

We can thank China for the formaldehyde in our flooring and drywall that is sickening Americans.

There is an alternative impact for any decision.

With all international trade there are both benefits and costs - the trick is to be the "winning" nation. Obviously, that depends heavily upon who gets to decide the rules of the international trade game. As an example look at the, very messy, US/Canada softwood lumber trade situation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute
 
With all international trade there are both benefits and costs - the trick is to be the "winning" nation.

You can't be the winning nation by dismantling your manufacturing base and sending it overseas. It ruins the economy because it destroys the middle class, and it is facilitating the rise of Chinese military might.
 
Only an idiot CEO would make financial decisions based on 'patriotism'. And only an idiot shareholder would want the company he/she is invested in to make business decisions based on 'patriotism' - unless they were stinking rich already and could afford to lose money.

And I don't see millions of Americans demanding domestically manufactured products. If enough of them did AND they were prepared to pay the premium for domestic manufacture, then the companies would not ship their production facilities overseas. But since the masses just whine on chat forums/local bars about it and do virtually nothing else to change things - then if anyone is unpatriotic on this subject, it is them.



BTW - I don't give a sh!t about 'patriotism'. All that is to me is a word politicians throw around when they want to get people to do unpleasant/awful things that they might not do otherwise.

Other then sports, I have near zero loyalty to my country (or any other country).

My loyalty is to honor...THAT is my country.

When I was younger and joined the military - I felt somewhat differently. But eventually I grew up and smartened up (at least on that issue).
 
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You can't be the winning nation by dismantling your manufacturing base and sending it overseas. It ruins the economy because it destroys the middle class, and it is facilitating the rise of Chinese military might.

You also cannot be a winning nation if the labor unions are permitted to run the show. US cars (and motorcycles), for example, were grossly overpriced primarily because US labor rates were artificially inflated by unions and "to compete" the US auto industry started to import many parts, eventually making a "US" car out of mostly imported parts. Note that we now count Canadian parts as basically domestic (US) parts when denoting the imported content of a "US" car.

Full-size truck buyers may be surprised that the Toyota Tundra uses more domestic parts than any of its rivals. With 80 percent of its parts from the U.S. and Canada, the Tundra is 10 percent more American than its closest domestic rival, the Dodge Ram, and significantly more American than the Ford F-Series, which gets 40 percent of its parts from other countries.


How Patriotic is Your Car? | U.S. News Best Cars
 
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You can't be the winning nation by dismantling your manufacturing base and sending it overseas. It ruins the economy because it destroys the middle class, and it is facilitating the rise of Chinese military might.

That's right - leave the production here, increase the prices of the goods, and see how quickly that will pummel the middle class, who then cannot afford the more expensive domestic goods.
 
Why would our standard of living crash?

If we stopped outsourcing as many jobs, then more people in the US would have jobs, which means we would produce more wealth right here in the USA.

Now maybe that would cause a few percent inflation, but like it or not, the Federal Reserve has determined that a few percent of inflation is stimulative to our economy and they strive to achieve such. So if we had a few percent of inflation due to cost push pressure, it would simply help to achieve the Feds goal, without the fed having to intervene by pumping more money into the system - so most likely there would be no additional inflation than what would have occurred without more jobs.

In the mean time, our wages would naturally tend to rise as employers have to compete harder and harder for workers, consumption increases as more people get jobs, production increases as businesses strive to meet demand, and the GDP increases. None of that is a bad thing, it's basically what happens when we have a strong economy.

You think that a strong economy = crash?

Well I can remember the early days when manufacturing was going down in the US due to overseas competition, and the unions were demanding protect. The voters wouldn't have it, though, they liked inexpensive, high quality goods. And so it has been from that day to this. I doubt if we ever go back.
 
That's right - leave the production here, increase the prices of the goods, and see how quickly that will pummel the middle class, who then cannot afford the more expensive domestic goods.

Not to mention the lower market for US exports once we start a (union led?) trade war. ;)
 
Reciprocity in action - excellent point!

Speaking of that reciprocity:

While Nascar often trumpets the high visibility enjoyed by its sponsors, whose logos festoon cars, as well as fans’ fidelity to brands that bankroll drivers, one of the highest returns for companies’ investments actually comes not from consumers but from other companies. The biggest fish some advertisers are reeling in, it turns out, are other advertisers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/business/media/18adco.html?_r=0
 
Excellent read.

Makes sense since NASCAR attendance is down due to their middle / lower middle class target market.

Working man's sport my ass - most drivers fly in luxury and exclusivity to the races.


I never understood why fans accepted such hypocrisy.

It gets better, NASCAR changed the rules in order to help ensure that the "top 35" cars get into every race (guaranteed advertising for the sponsors) even if they experienced probelms that would have previously left them out of a given race.

Racing for Sponsors - Forbes.com

The latest deals:

http://www.mrn.com/Race-Series/NASC...015-Sponsorships-In-Place-For-Many-Teams.aspx
 
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You also cannot be a winning nation if the labor unions are permitted to run the show. US cars (and motorcycles), for example, were grossly overpriced primarily because US labor rates were artificially inflated by unions and "to compete" the US auto industry started to import many parts, eventually making a "US" car out of mostly imported parts. Note that we now count Canadian parts as basically domestic (US) parts when denoting the imported content of a "US" car.

Labor unions while very powerful at one time, have never "run the show." Workers have a right to form unions to negotiate in their interests. If what they demand cannot be met, then close the business. If their demands are not realistic, they will not be able to find work and then they will have to settle for what is realistic. It does not mean that you pack up the whole show, dismantle the manufacturing base, go to another country, build up China, and then say "Oh look! They are a military threat to us now!"
 
We now here calls that the U.S. must confront the rise of China. However, China's rise has been facilitated by the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing to places like China, and selling those cheap goods to U.S. consumers. As such, is the outsourcing of jobs overseas patriotic?

Personally, I think this is a foolish question. It would be just as foolish to put up a poll asking if demands for a $15 minimum wage are unpatriotic because we know that many goods manufactured these days could not be profitable if the labour costs were $15/hr or more. As a result, a $15 minimum wage may force outsourcing of many low lever manufacturing and entry level service jobs as well as promote illegal immigration/labour in agriculture and property maintenance, etc.
 
Labor unions while very powerful at one time, have never "run the show." Workers have a right to form unions to negotiate in their interests. If what they demand cannot be met, then close the business. If their demands are not realistic, they will not be able to find work and then they will have to settle for what is realistic. It does not mean that you pack up the whole show, dismantle the manufacturing base, go to another country, build up China, and then say "Oh look! They are a military threat to us now!"

Your (bolded above) scenario is not what happened to GM or Chrysler. Too big to fail, yet just right to bail. ;)

Bailout debate: How the Big 3 came apart and how to fix them - Nov. 17, 2008
 
Personally, I think this is a foolish question. It would be just as foolish to put up a poll asking if demands for a $15 minimum wage are unpatriotic because we know that many goods manufactured these days could not be profitable if the labour costs were $15/hr or more. As a result, a $15 minimum wage may force outsourcing of many low lever manufacturing and entry level service jobs as well as promote illegal immigration/labour in agriculture and property maintenance, etc.

No it isn't foolish for the reason that dismantling the manufacturing base erodes the middle class and those ruins the economy. The only damn thing it has done is made it such that the economy depends on the ability of the system to provide credit, which has led to the enormous amount of indebtedness of the U.S. today. It's totally stupid, brain dead, foolish, and myopic. Over and above that it is unsustainable, and did, in fact, contribute to the 2008 financial crisis.
 
No it isn't foolish for the reason that dismantling the manufacturing base erodes the middle class and those ruins the economy. The only damn thing it has done is made it such that the economy depends on the ability of the system to provide credit, which has led to the enormous amount of indebtedness of the U.S. today. It's totally stupid, brain dead, foolish, and myopic. Over and above that it is unsustainable, and did, in fact, contribute to the 2008 financial crisis.

Wow - who knew? Is it responsible for climate change too?
 
We now here calls that the U.S. must confront the rise of China. However, China's rise has been facilitated by the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing to places like China, and selling those cheap goods to U.S. consumers. As such, is the outsourcing of jobs overseas patriotic?

It can only be answered with a question:

How much more are you willing to pay for your gadgets to have them made in the US?

You can't have cheap **** and a higher minimum wage, income 'equality" etc.
 
There should have been higher tariffs on imported cars from the beginning.

Nonsense - tariffs (if any) should apply to CONTENT regardless of the point of final assembly. Many "foreign" vehicles have more domestic parts than "US" vehicles and both are assembled here.

Full-size truck buyers may be surprised that the Toyota Tundra uses more domestic parts than any of its rivals. With 80 percent of its parts from the U.S. and Canada, the Tundra is 10 percent more American than its closest domestic rival, the Dodge Ram, and significantly more American than the Ford F-Series, which gets 40 percent of its parts from other countries.

How Patriotic is Your Car? | U.S. News Best Cars
 
Wow - who knew? Is it responsible for climate change too?

Oh no! What happens when you outsource manufacturing jobs overseas is that you erode middle class purchasing power. To make up for it, the Federal Reserve devised cheap credit which facilitated a housing bubble, which in turn led to the huge derivatives market, of which mortgage back securities (MBS), were a part. The derivatives market then overheated, no one then knew exactly how much risk they were exposed to, investors panicked, and the system unraveled. If the Fed had not stepped in, and literally take TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TOXIC MBS debt from the banks and put it on their books, the whole system would have fallen a part. Now, that's the truth.
 
It can only be answered with a question:

How much more are you willing to pay for your gadgets to have them made in the US?

You can't have cheap **** and a higher minimum wage, income 'equality" etc.

You have to pay what you have to pay. People were somehow able to purchase things before we dismantled the manufacturing base here. Surely you must remember that.
 
Nonsense - tariffs (if any) should apply to CONTENT regardless of the point of final assembly. Many "foreign" vehicles have more domestic parts than "US" vehicles and both are assembled here.

No. What I am saying is that there should have been very high tariffs imposed on foreign cars FROM THE START. The problem with the U.S. auto business is a result of a combination of having to compete with foreign cars and the oil price shock. If tariffs had been imposed on foreign cars FROM THE START, the U.S. auto business would not have had the types of problems that it had.
 
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