View Poll Results: Sue or not?

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    0 0%
  • No

    14 93.33%
  • Maybe

    0 0%
  • Other

    1 6.67%
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 28

Thread: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

  1. #1
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 04:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Okay, so arguing antidiscrimination laws made me think of this.

    If a business that unknowingly provides a product or service to someone they would otherwise deny that product or service to had they known about the purchaser's intended use, but they find out about it later, should they be able to sue the customer for use of their product at an event they would not have endorsed had they known?

    Examples (assumption is that each seller would have denied service had they known more about the future use of the item):

    KKK member purchases cake for KKK rally. Doesn't inform the baker (it isn't like they are all identifiable as KKK members and nothing was written on cake).
    KKK member purchases wood and/or gasoline or other supplies from hardware store. Definitely wouldn't say what it was used for.
    Gay gay orders cake for anniversary, at least one name is androgynous. Posts pictures after on face book celebrating event or baker finds out from someone else the guy is gay and married.
    Gay guy has sister order cake for his wedding, pretending to be the one getting married.
    Interracial couple order cake for their wedding via a parent, claiming the couple is going to be out of town til the wedding/live somewhere else, and that she is making all the arrangements because they suspect (and with this as part of my questioning, quite rightly) that the bakery is run by someone who disapproves morally of interracial marriage.
    Interracial couple really does live out of town and is having a parent take care of the arrangements and they simply didn't feel it was an important detail.

    So, should the provider of the goods or services listed above be able to sue based on defamation of their product or something to that affect, for someone using their product at an event they would not approve of had they known? Does type of deceit matter? Maybe whether they are protected explicitly or not by a law or doctrine of the state? What if there was no actual intended deceit, they simply didn't share information?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #2
    Guru
    brothern's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:34 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,060
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    You know I do understand Christians are bit whacked out; but which Christian honestly believes that serving muffins to the KKK is the moral equivalent of middle aged lesbians getting married?
    Help fight Zika, TB, HIV/AIDs and water pollution by donating your CPU's excess processing time to scientific research.
    A self-serving billionaire engaging in historically massive personal corruption #NotMyPresident

  3. #3
    Sage
    shrubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:03 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    17,960
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Okay, so arguing antidiscrimination laws made me think of this.


    If a business that unknowingly provides a product or service to someone they would otherwise deny that product or service to had they known about the purchaser's intended use, but they find out about it later, should they be able to sue the customer for use of their product at an event they would not have endorsed had they known?

    Examples (assumption is that each seller would have denied service had they known more about the future use of the item):

    KKK member purchases cake for KKK rally. Doesn't inform the baker (it isn't like they are all identifiable as KKK members and nothing was written on cake).
    KKK member purchases wood and/or gasoline or other supplies from hardware store. Definitely wouldn't say what it was used for.
    Gay gay orders cake for anniversary, at least one name is androgynous. Posts pictures after on face book celebrating event or baker finds out from someone else the guy is gay and married.
    Gay guy has sister order cake for his wedding, pretending to be the one getting married.
    Interracial couple order cake for their wedding via a parent, claiming the couple is going to be out of town til the wedding/live somewhere else, and that she is making all the arrangements because they suspect (and with this as part of my questioning, quite rightly) that the bakery is run by someone who disapproves morally of interracial marriage.
    Interracial couple really does live out of town and is having a parent take care of the arrangements and they simply didn't feel it was an important detail.

    So, should the provider of the goods or services listed above be able to sue based on defamation of their product or something to that affect, for someone using their product at an event they would not approve of had they known? Does type of deceit matter? Maybe whether they are protected explicitly or not by a law or doctrine of the state? What if there was no actual intended deceit, they simply didn't share information?


    This is way too complicated to respond to, you need to break this down into several threads.

  4. #4
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    30,677
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Okay, so arguing antidiscrimination laws made me think of this.

    If a business that unknowingly provides a product or service to someone they would otherwise deny that product or service to had they known about the purchaser's intended use, but they find out about it later, should they be able to sue the customer for use of their product at an event they would not have endorsed had they known?

    Examples (assumption is that each seller would have denied service had they known more about the future use of the item):

    KKK member purchases cake for KKK rally. Doesn't inform the baker (it isn't like they are all identifiable as KKK members and nothing was written on cake).
    KKK member purchases wood and/or gasoline or other supplies from hardware store. Definitely wouldn't say what it was used for.
    Gay gay orders cake for anniversary, at least one name is androgynous. Posts pictures after on face book celebrating event or baker finds out from someone else the guy is gay and married.
    Gay guy has sister order cake for his wedding, pretending to be the one getting married.
    Interracial couple order cake for their wedding via a parent, claiming the couple is going to be out of town til the wedding/live somewhere else, and that she is making all the arrangements because they suspect (and with this as part of my questioning, quite rightly) that the bakery is run by someone who disapproves morally of interracial marriage.
    Interracial couple really does live out of town and is having a parent take care of the arrangements and they simply didn't feel it was an important detail.

    So, should the provider of the goods or services listed above be able to sue based on defamation of their product or something to that affect, for someone using their product at an event they would not approve of had they known? Does type of deceit matter? Maybe whether they are protected explicitly or not by a law or doctrine of the state? What if there was no actual intended deceit, they simply didn't share information?
    No. The baker should no more be able to sue someone for "defamation of product" as you put it than anyone else should be able to sue for not being sold a product. The reason for this being that after a product is sold it is no longer the businesses item and as such has no right to dictate how that item is used, not used, or even sold or not sold unless a contract states otherwise for any one or partial or all of the previous things. Where as refusing to sell a product is acceptable for much the same reason. That product is not the customers and as such that customer has no right to dictate whether that product is sold or not sold. Indeed a business owner could even conceivably dictate how that product may be used via a contract. For example: HOA homes.

    I understand what you tried to do here but for property rights and contracts it will fail.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  5. #5
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 05:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Unless you become contractually obligated to use said product for a set of uses / purposes then a business has no right to dictate what you do with said product.

    For instance: I publish books so I do a lot of cover art. I purchase the right to use images. In order to use them legally I have to abide by the rules in the contract. Example: I can't use the images for anything which might be deemed pornographic. If I do use an image for said purpose the company has a list of repercussions.

    If I do I therefor am in violation of my user agreement and can be sued.

    However, if I go to a bakery and pick up a box of donuts there is often no user agreement. It's a fair exchange for monies and the only stipulations (often printed on the receipt) are the use policy / return policy / and the warranty (if there is one at all).

    So - if a business wants to provide food and write up a legal contract that the customer must sign in order to purchase said food - they can do so. But only if they have done so can such an entity hold the customer liable for said uses.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  6. #6
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    30,677
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Unless you become contractually obligated to use said product for a set of uses / purposes then a business has no right to dictate what you do with said product.

    For instance: I publish books so I do a lot of cover art. I purchase the right to use images. In order to use them legally I have to abide by the rules in the contract. Example: I can't use the images for anything which might be deemed pornographic. If I do use an image for said purpose the company has a list of repercussions.

    If I do I therefor am in violation of my user agreement and can be sued.

    However, if I go to a bakery and pick up a box of donuts there is often no user agreement. It's a fair exchange for monies and the only stipulations (often printed on the receipt) are the use policy / return policy / and the warranty (if there is one at all).

    So - if a business wants to provide food and write up a legal contract that the customer must sign in order to purchase said food - they can do so. But only if they have done so can such an entity hold the customer liable for said uses.
    Maybe this is what people that own businesses should start doing. Post a sign on the front door stating that in order to buy X product you must sign a contract agreeing to X terms and then on each receipt have that contract written down on it and they have to sign it in order to buy the product. If the contract isn't signed then people have a legal reason for not selling X product as the person buying the product agreed to the contract stipulations.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  7. #7
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 04:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Unless you become contractually obligated to use said product for a set of uses / purposes then a business has no right to dictate what you do with said product.

    For instance: I publish books so I do a lot of cover art. I purchase the right to use images. In order to use them legally I have to abide by the rules in the contract. Example: I can't use the images for anything which might be deemed pornographic. If I do use an image for said purpose the company has a list of repercussions.

    If I do I therefor am in violation of my user agreement and can be sued.

    However, if I go to a bakery and pick up a box of donuts there is often no user agreement. It's a fair exchange for monies and the only stipulations (often printed on the receipt) are the use policy / return policy / and the warranty (if there is one at all).

    So - if a business wants to provide food and write up a legal contract that the customer must sign in order to purchase said food - they can do so. But only if they have done so can such an entity hold the customer liable for said uses.
    Even then I'd think the person in at least some instances could claim duress in signing the contract. Or illegal terms of the contract. Contract law doesn't allow for people to have anything put in their contract automatically be legal.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #8
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 05:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Even then I'd think the person in at least some instances could claim duress in signing the contract. Or illegal terms of the contract. Contract law doesn't allow for people to have anything put in their contract automatically be legal.
    Yep - true - contracts must pass legal muster and be enforceable.

    The only thing not outwardly stipulated in a contract are things like libel and slander - if you use someone's product to slander them then that might be a violation of various codes - etc - and on and on. Something to be decided in court.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  9. #9
    Sage
    Sherman123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Northeast US
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,770

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Maybe this is what people that own businesses should start doing. Post a sign on the front door stating that in order to buy X product you must sign a contract agreeing to X terms and then on each receipt have that contract written down on it and they have to sign it in order to buy the product. If the contract isn't signed then people have a legal reason for not selling X product as the person buying the product agreed to the contract stipulations.
    Why would you want to do this?

  10. #10
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    30,677
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Suing for use of product at unapproved event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yep - true - contracts must pass legal muster and be enforceable.

    The only thing not outwardly stipulated in a contract are things like libel and slander - if you use someone's product to slander them then that might be a violation of various codes - etc - and on and on. Something to be decided in court.
    Yeah, contracts are tricky things. You pretty much need a lawyer to write any up if you want to make sure it won't run afoul of any public policy laws.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •