View Poll Results: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

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Thread: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    ever since the comments of jonathan gruber with respect to the PPACA, in combination with the "pass it to find out whats in it" comments, i have to be skeptical on this

    even if the language is clear, who knows what it will look like if enacted. which companies get exempted from the requirements because they're inconvenient or impact revenue (e.g. changes to manufacturer specs on mobile devices for Apple)? which provisions later get waived away by executive order? which features get delayed so that the party responsible doesn't get held accountable at the ballot box?

    before the ppaca, i would have agreed with the poster who said we need a hatchet not a scalpel. but after that, i dont trust any bill that this congress comes up with of this magnitude. i get that the text of this bill itself is short, but it refers to the dismantling of a much more complex and entrenched piece of legislation.

    these are the all stars who couldnt oversee the creation of a website in 2 years with 300 million dollars; these are the geniuses that take over a decade to deliver new fighter jets; and the ones who have created our nonsensical middle east policy where we can't even keep track of which rebels and terrorists we are funneling the money and the guns to.

    its time we take back the authority vested in our representatives and scale back the extent to which they are in charge of things. i say we take it one provision at a time until they can prove that they're deserving of more responsibility

  2. #12
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Assuming it really is what it appears to be on the surface, yes I would support it. The Patriot act is one of the most atrocious pieces of legislation we've ever passed, and it's time we get rid of it.
    Yep, it was one of the things the neocons at PNAC were talking about when they said, all we need is another Pearl Harbor and we'll be able to pass everything we want.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #13
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why not scrap the whole thing and start from scratch with the things that do not violate the Constitution?
    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    why can't we use a hatchet? what is it about this legislation that needs to be surgically removed as opposed to doing away with it entirely?
    I've addressed this a few times in various threads, so we'll see if repeating myself makes me talk more or for once makes me less verbose due to fatigue

    Why the scapel? Why not scrap the whole thing? A number of reasons...

    One, the vast majority of it is sound and solid law. Even it's biggest critic at the time of it's passage, the one man to vote against it Russ Fiengold, acknowledged that 90% of the bill is solid worth while law. Most of PATRIOT is aimed at bringing out survelliance law into the modern age. Prior to PATRIOT, the two most instrumental survelliance laws in the country was Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act in 1978 and TITLE III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets act of 1968. Prior to PATRIOT we had a cobbled together pieces of patchwork trying to deal with the massive advances in technology since then; patchwork that left gaping holes and horrible grey areas. Scrapping a large amount of legitimately worth while updates to our intelligence law to get rid of some problematic parts is inefficient and wasteful. In part because....

    Two, the political poison that is PATRIOT, mixed with the highly politicized atmosphere today, makes it extremely unlikely that an option of "Just repeal the whole thing and put back the good parts" is likely to work. ANYTHING related to Patriot is largely panned by the public and is unpopular, making it very fertile ground for anyone looking to attack an incumbant if they were to support a bill bringing back any part of PATRIOT. As such, it'd likely be politically damaging for someone to take up a bill restoring the majority of the good parts. Not to mention, with how divided we are today, the likelihood of such a bill actually gaining wide scale acceptance to a level necessary to actually pass (let alone make it past a presidents desk) is likely small.

    Given that I feel the majority of it is good, and given that I believe getting those things rewritten into law would be extremely difficult and potentially unlikely anytime in the near future, to me that creates a recipe asking for a measured approach. We have a house with a good foundation and solid structure, but with a busted toilet, a linking sink, and a light fixture that's out. All problematic things that definitely make life more difficult and you don't want to leave there; but you don't bulldoze the entire house, especially when building prices are much higher than before and the potential contractors you could hire are much more limited this time around.

    There are all kinds of methods of dealing with the more problematic portions of it; many that have already been working for years. Sunets built into the bill itself, court cases striking portions of it, new bills amending or removing portoins of it. Those methods should continue to be employed to clean out the troubled parts while leaving the solid foundation in place.

    I see no point in repealing PATRIOT unless one has an inherent issue with Government Survelliance in general, in which case calls to simply repeat PATRIOT but not many of the other laws (Like FISA or Title III) are simply either short sighted and useless OR a sign that the person is not actually caring about survelliance but rather a political hot button.

  4. #14
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Yes
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    other



    https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-.../1466/all-info


    I support it.Its a step in the right direction
    It's a step in the right direction. More is needed to properly constrain the government, but this at least starts in the right direction it would seem. Particularly getting rid of the Anti-Patriot Act.
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've addressed this a few times in various threads, so we'll see if repeating myself makes me talk more or for once makes me less verbose due to fatigue

    Why the scapel? Why not scrap the whole thing? A number of reasons...

    One, the vast majority of it is sound and solid law. Even it's biggest critic at the time of it's passage, the one man to vote against it Russ Fiengold, acknowledged that 90% of the bill is solid worth while law. Most of PATRIOT is aimed at bringing out survelliance law into the modern age. Prior to PATRIOT, the two most instrumental survelliance laws in the country was Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act in 1978 and TITLE III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets act of 1968. Prior to PATRIOT we had a cobbled together pieces of patchwork trying to deal with the massive advances in technology since then; patchwork that left gaping holes and horrible grey areas. Scrapping a large amount of legitimately worth while updates to our intelligence law to get rid of some problematic parts is inefficient and wasteful. In part because....

    Two, the political poison that is PATRIOT, mixed with the highly politicized atmosphere today, makes it extremely unlikely that an option of "Just repeal the whole thing and put back the good parts" is likely to work. ANYTHING related to Patriot is largely panned by the public and is unpopular, making it very fertile ground for anyone looking to attack an incumbant if they were to support a bill bringing back any part of PATRIOT. As such, it'd likely be politically damaging for someone to take up a bill restoring the majority of the good parts. Not to mention, with how divided we are today, the likelihood of such a bill actually gaining wide scale acceptance to a level necessary to actually pass (let alone make it past a presidents desk) is likely small.

    Given that I feel the majority of it is good, and given that I believe getting those things rewritten into law would be extremely difficult and potentially unlikely anytime in the near future, to me that creates a recipe asking for a measured approach. We have a house with a good foundation and solid structure, but with a busted toilet, a linking sink, and a light fixture that's out. All problematic things that definitely make life more difficult and you don't want to leave there; but you don't bulldoze the entire house, especially when building prices are much higher than before and the potential contractors you could hire are much more limited this time around.

    There are all kinds of methods of dealing with the more problematic portions of it; many that have already been working for years. Sunets built into the bill itself, court cases striking portions of it, new bills amending or removing portoins of it. Those methods should continue to be employed to clean out the troubled parts while leaving the solid foundation in place.

    I see no point in repealing PATRIOT unless one has an inherent issue with Government Survelliance in general, in which case calls to simply repeat PATRIOT but not many of the other laws (Like FISA or Title III) are simply either short sighted and useless OR a sign that the person is not actually caring about survelliance but rather a political hot button.
    this all makes sense if we accept the idea that 90% of the bill is good. I don't know if I agree with that, however, because I honestly don't know a ton about what's actually in it. what are the parts that you would take out and how are they different from the parts that you would leave in?

    oh and sorry to make you repeat yourself. I suppose i'm still reasonably new around here and haven't talked about PATRIOT in a long time.

  6. #16
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    this all makes sense if we accept the idea that 90% of the bill is good. I don't know if I agree with that, however, because I honestly don't know a ton about what's actually in it. what are the parts that you would take out and how are they different from the parts that you would leave in?

    oh and sorry to make you repeat yourself. I suppose i'm still reasonably new around here and haven't talked about PATRIOT in a long time.
    No problem being new, or making me repeat myself Nature of a message board. If I wasn't interested in still saying my opinion on it I would've just kept my trap shut

    That said, what it does mean is that sometimes I can just repost what I've already written. And seeing as someone asked me a similar question, I'll go ahead and do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Second, an example of the type of things I find good are the multitude of updates To past surveillance laws like Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act and Title III of the Omnibus Crime control and safe streets act of 1968, which brings many of those laws up to speed with things like email, cell phones, etc the were just non existent at those times. For example, Section 204 updates a part of Title III dealing with Survelliance to read "wire, oral, and electronic" as opposed to just wire and oral, removing the grey area regarding modern communication and how it fits with a title III. This allowed for the government to obtain a voicemail via a search warrant, where as previously the law would require them to get a warrant to tap the phone and then hope the individual played said voicemail.

    Section 214 and 216 are similar, bringing the technologies of penregisters and trap and trace devices into the modern era of email and chat rooms, allowing the government to obtain warrants to use devices to gleam what keys a person is pushing instead of just what numbers they're dialing.

    Third, some of the things I'd have no qualms seeing cut (mind you, it's been 8 years since I heavily studied the bill so many of these mayve been altered/removed already). Section 206, dealing with roving wiretaps. Patriot lowered the burden of proof to gain a warrant for such a thing, needing to only show its needed because the persons movement between communication sources circumvents detection rather than showing that they're doing it specifically to circumvent detection. I'd be fine seeing that standard bumped up once again.

    Another instance is section 213 dealing with sneak and peek warrants. I'd be fine seeing the "foreign agent" require,enr placed back in, removing its ability to be used on domestic targets. A look at section 215, the "any tangible things" provision, and it's cousin action 505 would be absolutely reasonable as well.

    Finally, I'd love for them to reexamine section 802, the definition of domestic terrorism as defined in Patriot, as I feel it's FAR to broad and gives the government way too much leeway.

  7. #17
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?
    if it only does what it says in the OP, then probably. if they attach a bunch of poison pills to it, no.

    this is all rhetorical, though. the "patriot" act will never be repealed, nor will most of the other measures and policies passed as part of the WOT. the NSA will also continue to record every bit of data out there, and it will most likely expand its operations even more. this bill is ceremonial, and nothing more.

  8. #18
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely and unequivicoably "no". I'm emphatically against any legislation that would enact a wholesale repeal of the USA PATRIOT Act as opposed to a piecemail approach. The correct answer for this kind of surgery is a scapel, not a hatchet
    That's one possible route, but I'd prefer the hatchet and passing things individually that was previously in the act and should stay law.

    It was far reaching legislation that was passed in probably the time that people were least worried about civil liberties and fearful of constant terrorist attacks. If the single measures can't bear scrutiny on their own they shouldn't be law
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  9. #19
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's a step in the right direction. More is needed to properly constrain the government, but this at least starts in the right direction it would seem. Particularly getting rid of the Anti-Patriot Act.
    I think it in order to prevent future abuses companies should be required by law to delete their data on customers that the government could use to spy on the people with.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #20
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    Re: Do you support the H.R.1466 - Surveillance State Repeal Act?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've addressed this a few times in various threads, so we'll see if repeating myself makes me talk more or for once makes me less verbose due to fatigue

    Why the scapel? Why not scrap the whole thing? A number of reasons...

    One, the vast majority of it is sound and solid law. Even it's biggest critic at the time of it's passage, the one man to vote against it Russ Fiengold, acknowledged that 90% of the bill is solid worth while law. Most of PATRIOT is aimed at bringing out survelliance law into the modern age. Prior to PATRIOT, the two most instrumental survelliance laws in the country was Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act in 1978 and TITLE III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets act of 1968. Prior to PATRIOT we had a cobbled together pieces of patchwork trying to deal with the massive advances in technology since then; patchwork that left gaping holes and horrible grey areas. Scrapping a large amount of legitimately worth while updates to our intelligence law to get rid of some problematic parts is inefficient and wasteful. In part because....

    Two, the political poison that is PATRIOT, mixed with the highly politicized atmosphere today, makes it extremely unlikely that an option of "Just repeal the whole thing and put back the good parts" is likely to work. ANYTHING related to Patriot is largely panned by the public and is unpopular, making it very fertile ground for anyone looking to attack an incumbant if they were to support a bill bringing back any part of PATRIOT. As such, it'd likely be politically damaging for someone to take up a bill restoring the majority of the good parts. Not to mention, with how divided we are today, the likelihood of such a bill actually gaining wide scale acceptance to a level necessary to actually pass (let alone make it past a presidents desk) is likely small.

    Given that I feel the majority of it is good, and given that I believe getting those things rewritten into law would be extremely difficult and potentially unlikely anytime in the near future, to me that creates a recipe asking for a measured approach. We have a house with a good foundation and solid structure, but with a busted toilet, a linking sink, and a light fixture that's out. All problematic things that definitely make life more difficult and you don't want to leave there; but you don't bulldoze the entire house, especially when building prices are much higher than before and the potential contractors you could hire are much more limited this time around.

    There are all kinds of methods of dealing with the more problematic portions of it; many that have already been working for years. Sunets built into the bill itself, court cases striking portions of it, new bills amending or removing portoins of it. Those methods should continue to be employed to clean out the troubled parts while leaving the solid foundation in place.

    I see no point in repealing PATRIOT unless one has an inherent issue with Government Survelliance in general, in which case calls to simply repeat PATRIOT but not many of the other laws (Like FISA or Title III) are simply either short sighted and useless OR a sign that the person is not actually caring about survelliance but rather a political hot button.

    So your excuse for not repealing the whole thing is because it may not be politically beneficial for future politicians to enact what you may think are the good parts of the patriot act.Sounds like Nancy Pelosi lying her ass off saying she is against domestic spying while supporting unconditional funding of the NSA.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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