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Heterosexual atheist or homosexual believer ?

Which one would you refuse to serve ?

  • Hetero atheist

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Homo believer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I would not serve criminals and murderers either

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33
my questions stem from such threads about gays.:2wave:

No, it stems from your complete inability to understand the other side. An inability to make a distinction between discrimination and discretion. Your question comes from putting a higher value on equality of outcome and a lesser value on individual liberty.

Consider this: Our country was founded on the value of liberty, with equality hinging on conformity with society norms. Persuading others of your position via free expression is the equalizer. This is how liberty is maintained while allowing for differences in a diverse population. When government steps in and compels behavior some liberty is denied, resentment occurs and, societal division is inevitable.

When Liberty is the focus societal change happens slowly and equality for some comes slowly, but the population as a whole is united with common values that develop and progress over time. When equality of outcome takes the primary focus, change is quick but society breaks down, and the majority feels oppressed by a perceived tyrannical government who decides what the social values should be (as opposed to what they actually are).

In other words we prefer to use free expression and persuasion to develop social norms, and resent being classified as bigots for valuing liberty as the primary political value.
 
No, it stems from your complete inability to understand the other side. An inability to make a distinction between discrimination and discretion. Your question comes from putting a higher value on equality of outcome and a lesser value on individual liberty.

Consider this: Our country was founded on the value of liberty, with equality hinging on conformity with society norms. Persuading others of your position via free expression is the equalizer. This is how liberty is maintained while allowing for differences in a diverse population. When government steps in and compels behavior some liberty is denied, resentment occurs and, societal division is inevitable.

When Liberty is the focus societal change happens slowly and equality for some comes slowly, but the population as a whole is united with common values that develop and progress over time. When equality of outcome takes the primary focus, change is quick but society breaks down, and the majority feels oppressed by a perceived tyrannical government who decides what the social values should be (as opposed to what they actually are).

In other words we prefer to use free expression and persuasion to develop social norms, and resent being classified as bigots for valuing liberty as the primary political value.

ok ,just answer please ,hetero athe or homo gay

and do you know where the liberty ends ?
 
ok ,just answer please ,hetero athe or homo gay

and do you know where the liberty ends ?

I wouldn't refuse basic service to anyone, in my open location as I wouldn't have any way of knowing anything about their personal life. I wouldn't deny anyone their right to free association either.
 
By the former you mean those who are pushing for the right to discriminate against gays, and by the latter you mean those in opposition, right?

Discriminate? Discrimination is always a bad thing? Do you discriminate between lawful citizens and criminals? Do you discriminate between drunks and sober people. Do you invite every person to your home or do you discriminate between friend and foe? Do restaurants discriminate against those with no shoes? Do Bars use age discrimination? Do retirement homes discriminate based on age? Do inner city empowerment zones discriminate against those who work in suburbs or rural areas?

Let's talk about freedom. Is liberty a higher value than equality? Is freedom of association valuable? How about freedom of religion?

So what you mean is your idea of social justice trumps liberty. I disagree
 
It's funny hearing Christians argue for the power to disenfranchise people who are not heterosexual Christians. Whatever happened to "Love thy neighbor as thyself"? Did they somehow forget that Jesus said it was only the second most important commandment in the entire Old Testament?
 
I wouldn't refuse anyone as it would interfere with my profit ..besides i'm not going to ask everyone who comes into my business if they were a hetero/homosexual or someone who follows a religion.
 
Money is money, what people are or what they believe would likely be inconsequential to my business.
 
Oh boo hoo. The poor "oppressed Christian" meme is getting old.

:shrug: maybe stop trying to shove them out of the public square, then.

If I may quote Andrew Sullivan:

... If this is the gay rights movement today – hounding our opponents with a fanaticism more like the religious right than anyone else – then count me out. If we are about intimidating the free speech of others, we are no better than the anti-gay bullies who came before us....
 
I believe nothing wrong, I know what the reality of the law is.

Lots ot people have believed to believe nothing wrong, because the knew the law. Some have been hanged from time to time for acting on their belief. And rightly so, if not in this case.
 
Heard this asked elsewhere and thought it was an interesting question...

If you're gay, why would you even want to patronize a business who doesn't like you? To prove a point?

How would you know they didn't want your business until you were already invested in spending your time (possibly taking time off work) to give them your business?
 
:doh Really?

Whenever you find out. However you find out.

:roll:

And again, then you have already invested your time to them. Especially since the majority of those refusing service are claiming to only refuse certain services. And most Christians or those of other faiths even do not refuse service to gays, even for their weddings. It is only a few.
 
Oh boo hoo. The poor "oppressed Christian" meme is getting old.

If they can paint the current issue as one where their beliefs are being oppressed, they get to ignore the fact that they historically oppressed a group of people. It's a pretty dishonest argument from the anti-gay side but you find it in pretty much every civil rights issue. Blacks had to deal with people telling us that segregation was a personal belief that couldn't be pushed aside so that we could have equal rights. Now, the same is being done to gays. In 20 years, religious American will look REALLY silly for that.
 
And again, then you have already invested your time to them. Especially since the majority of those refusing service are claiming to only refuse certain services. And most Christians or those of other faiths even do not refuse service to gays, even for their weddings. It is only a few.
Sounds like normal life to me. Sometimes you come across something that rubs you the wrong way even after you've already invested some time.
 
When and if our nation, and its people, ever grow up .. this crap will be a thing of the past , and not a very nice past ..Growing up means , for one, putting "religion" where it belongs ...
 
When and if our nation, and its people, ever grow up .. this crap will be a thing of the past , and not a very nice past ..Growing up means , for one, putting "religion" where it belongs ...

And where does my religion “belong”, according to you?
 
Sounds like normal life to me. Sometimes you come across something that rubs you the wrong way even after you've already invested some time.

Except they aren't the ones that are doing anything wrong, and it is very possible that they might find a cake they like from someone who decides that they aren't good enough for their cakes because of who they are.
 
There is no "gay obsession". That is an artifact of media hype.


There is simply one side pushing their agenda, and another side that simply says "Sorry but our beliefs mean we cannot agree with that."


That, and the subsequent attempts by the former to beat the latter into submission with lawsuits.

Silliest strawman I have ever seen you create and utterly dishonest. I'll keep this post in mind the next time I see you trying to paint yourself as someone reasonable and fair in his discourse.
 
Except they aren't the ones that are doing anything wrong, and it is very possible that they might find a cake they like from someone who decides that they aren't good enough for their cakes because of who they are.
Yeah, so?

Seriously. Again, sounds like normal life. Sometimes people who did nothing wrong come across situations that make them uncomfortable.
 
Yeah, so?

Seriously. Again, sounds like normal life. Sometimes people who did nothing wrong come across situations that make them uncomfortable.

There are laws in some states (at least) that protect people from that treatment.
 
There are laws in some states (at least) that protect people from that treatment.

No. There are laws (in some states) that prevent people from acting in such a way. Said laws don't prevent them from being rude to people they don't like, which is what I'm referring to regarding treatment.

Why do you insist on this naive fantasy vision that nobody should ever have to make a hard choice and that life will always be warm-and-fuzzy?
 
Dont ask me why I am asking it because the gay obsession I have been seeing here is really covering up the real meaning of the belief in god as if the homosexuality is the only one sin comdemned .:mrgreen:

yes which one would you refuse to serve as a business owner? .which one is important to you if you think you are a true believer ? religion or which people believe in religion ?

I'd refuse to serve the one that doesn't have any money to pay for the goods or services I offer.
 
I'd refuse to serve the one that doesn't have any money to pay for the goods or services I offer.

what did jesus say ?

help the poor :mrgreen:
 
No. There are laws (in some states) that prevent people from acting in such a way. Said laws don't prevent them from being rude to people they don't like, which is what I'm referring to regarding treatment.

Why do you insist on this naive fantasy vision that nobody should ever have to make a hard choice and that life will always be warm-and-fuzzy?

We have these laws there to help reduce people having to make "a hard choice" (whatever that means in relation to this), and is able to be treated fairly. We should hold businesses to an expectation of treating their customers fairly to the highest extent possible. This is one way we help to do that, by having anti-discrimination/public accommodation laws in place.
 
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