View Poll Results: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

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Thread: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

  1. #81
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    Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    I'm not sure of what you are asking me. You are the one who said ISIS may not make it to the weekend. I'm saying it doesn't matter who defeats them. Because even if they are defeated, someone else will pop up. IMO We're stuck in the muck and mire mess we created for a long long time.

    It was just a year or so ago all we heard about was the Taliban and AQ. Now? We hardly hear about them, now it's ISIS. who's next?
    So if the Arabs are the ones who kill Isis? Muslims who are tired of the radicals? You don't think that would pose a problem for OTHER radical Islamic groups? The world would become a lot less safe for them. Kind of like what happened to the world for left wing terror groups at the fall of the Soviet Union.

    Isis isn't a threat and we really aren't stuck. We are dealing with the results of 85 years of involvement in the Middle East. And 70 years of political involvement. But we aren't "stuck." We could wash our hands and be done. And that is what is happening. We are going hands off.

    And if the Arab Muslims kill the radicals, then the flower of democracy might start to take ahold.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  2. #82
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    The Coalition's invasion completely threw the region into chaos: the power vacuum led to the creation of ISIS which then spread into Syria (turning it into a civil war) and beyond, Iran's influence grew in the Shiite areas, Al Qaeda finally had a presence in an area formerly suppressed by Saddam Hussein, over 4 million refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, Kurdish secession and potential for a whole scale civil war in Turkey, etc. Do you want more?
    ISIS were on the run and had been beaten back in Iraq, read up on "the awakening". What allowed them to spread and prosper in Syria was the West's inaction, if we had intervened earlier we could of stopped groups like ISIS from ever gaining any ground. Syria is an open wound which needed to be healed, instead we let it fester and the infection spread. Again this had little to do with the fall of Saddam.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  3. #83
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Yes and I understand the point people are trying to make but no one has yet to tell me how EXACTLY did the Iraq war effect the region. This was unstable country that had invaded its neighbours, caused a major conflict ( gulf war), used chemical weapons on its own people and broke international law numerous times resulting in NATO bombing raids. Iraq was and remains unstable so to me other events in the region are not directly linked to the fall of Saddam.
    I think it has been explained to you on numerous occasions, but I understand as a veteran of that war, your need and desire to defend it. Do you recall by the way that your own Downing Street noted that George Bush was massaging the intelligence coming out on Iraq to fit his predetermined policy of regime change? Do you realise that the necessity of a war with Iraq was sold to the American public on the merits that Saddam Hussein was connected with AQ and had a relationship with OBL. And was capable of producing a mushroom cloud over a US city? None of which was true? Not all of the unrest in the ME is due to the removal of Hussein. There's the US/NATO action in Libya that removed the stabilising leader there, too! You probably don't pay much attention to the mess that countries in now because it too is an embarrassment to Western interference.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I think it has been explained to you on numerous occasions, but I understand as a veteran of that war, your need and desire to defend it. Do you recall by the way that your own Downing Street noted that George Bush was massaging the intelligence coming out on Iraq to fit his predetermined policy of regime change? Do you realise that the necessity of a war with Iraq was sold to the American public on the merits that Saddam Hussein was connected with AQ and had a relationship with OBL. And was capable of producing a mushroom cloud over a US city? None of which was true? Not all of the unrest in the ME is due to the removal of Hussein. There's the US/NATO action in Libya that removed the stabilising leader there, too! You probably don't pay much attention to the mess that countries in now because it too is an embarrassment to Western interference.
    Thats literally just a narrative , your narrative at that and has nothing to do with the question at hand.
    Many posters have stated that the fall of Saddam is to blame for ISIS growing in numbers in Syria, this is just not accurate. As I pointed out before the fall of Syria many regions of Iraq including the famous 'anbar awakening" were successful at driving out extremists. These groups did not get a foothold in the region until the Syrian civil war which was ignited by the "Arab Spring". So I ask you how is the fall of Saddam responsible for this?
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    ISIS were on the run and had been beaten back in Iraq, read up on "the awakening". What allowed them to spread and prosper in Syria was the West's inaction, if we had intervened earlier we could of stopped groups like ISIS from ever gaining any ground. Syria is an open wound which needed to be healed, instead we let it fester and the infection spread. Again this had little to do with the fall of Saddam.
    Yeah right. If we'd have only gone to war in another ME country, things would be so much better. Do you understand that Obama tried in Syria? Are you aware of the fact that he dispatched Hillary Clinton on three occasions to the UN to secure a resolution for the use of force in Syria. And that due to the West's abuse of UN1973 in Libya, that all three times Russia and China said NO!!!!!! Do you understand that hegemonic and failed Western policies in the ME (and now Eastern Europe) are pushing Russia and China closer together. Stop defending failure!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Thats literally just a narrative , your narrative at that and has nothing to do with the question at hand.
    Many posters have stated that the fall of Saddam is to blame for ISIS growing in numbers in Syria, this is just not accurate. As I pointed out before the fall of Syria many regions of Iraq including the famous 'anbar awakening" were successful at driving out extremists. These groups did not get a foothold in the region until the Syrian civil war which was ignited by the "Arab Spring". So I ask you how is the fall of Saddam responsible for this?
    Wtf do you mean narrative? I'm not the one that has blamed the growth of the Islamic State on the fall of Saddam. I blame it on the Western powers interference that has removed the forces of Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad for the instability of the region.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Wtf do you mean narrative? I'm not the one that has blamed the growth of the Islamic State on the fall of Saddam. I blame it on the Western powers interference that has removed the forces of Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad for the instability of the region.
    Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad were toppled by their own people. Why should they have to live under the rule of dictators?
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Wtf do you mean narrative? I'm not the one that has blamed the growth of the Islamic State on the fall of Saddam. I blame it on the Western powers interference that has removed the forces of Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad for the instability of the region.
    Blame the West all you want and in the case of Iraq you’re right mistakes were made, however you can’t just simply pin everything that has happened since on the Iraq War as the region is just too complex. Due to work I have spent time in Iraq, Turkey, Egypt and a very short visit to Syria in the past 6 months. The biggest thing that stuck out to me is how much people want change in these regions and how westernised they are becoming. People don’t want dictators anymore, no oppressive regimes, women want more rights etc. 20 plus years ago these are the kind of things that people would never even whisper about and regardless they had no platform from which to discuss such ideas. As we saw from the Arab spring social media has changed everything, ideas spread faster, young people are exposed to different ideas, cultures etc. What we are seeing in countries like Egypt, Jordon, Saudi etc is young people who want to be more like the West, who want the same rights and opportunity that we do. They are moving on however the military and the dictators are not as we have seen in Syria.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Dictators come and go in the middle east as demonstrated in the past few years. Name me a country where this "power vacuum" emboldened people to seize power in their own country? Also worth pointing out we (the west) have been propping up/ toppling governments in the middle east since the fall of the Ottoman empire.
    I can't name you a country off the top of my head where a "power vacuum" (Power vacuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has existed and I don't care enough about this tangent to look one up. if it is truly your position that removing a powerful dictator from power and dismantling his army does not have an impact on the surrounding region then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    I can't name you a country off the top of my head where a "power vacuum" (Power vacuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) has existed and I don't care enough about this tangent to look one up. if it is truly your position that removing a powerful dictator from power and dismantling his army does not have an impact on the surrounding region then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    So you base your opinion on the fact the term " power vacum" exists. Fair enough, didnt really answer my question or explain exactly how the fall or Iraq led to the Syrian civil war but fair enough.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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