View Poll Results: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

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Thread: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

  1. #111
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    Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The Middle East is not better off, and perhaps you're not acknowledging reality. And US policies are the biggest cause of this.
    The Middle East is "not better off." You are basing this on what? 12 years of information after the invasion? How many years since U.S. Exit from Iraq?

    Now. I agree we have had a negative impact IF you measure from BEFORE 2003. Starting from what? The 30s? Sure. But you are essentially trying to determine if the ME is better in a scale of measure that makes no logical sense. Have you read any history books on this region?

    1) Wars have always occurred in the ME.
    2) Has our involvement fundamentally changed #1?
    3) How do you know?
    4) How has it changed it?
    5) Finally...have you even given it enough time to determine if our involvement destroyed the ME?

    Seriously. History isn't measure by years. It is measured by Decades at best. You have no clue if what we have done has fundamentally changed the equation in the ME for better or worse. Hell. My vote is for neither. The most likely is that it didn't change anything. There will always be war there. That is the historical precedent, but that only counts for so much.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 04-22-15 at 10:08 AM.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    The Middle East is "not better off." You are basing this on what? 12 years of information after the invasion? How many years since U.S. Exit from Iraq?

    Now. I agree we have had a negative impact IF you measure from BEFORE 2003. Starting from what? The 30s? Sure. But you are essentially trying to determine if the ME is better in a scale of measure that makes no logical sense. Have you read any history books on this region?

    1) Wars have always occurred in the ME.
    2) Has our involvement fundamentally changed #1?
    3) How do you know?
    4) How has it changed it?
    5) Finally...have you even given it enough time to determine if our involvement destroyed the ME?

    Seriously. History isn't measure by years. It is measured by Decades at best. You have no clue if what we have done has fundamentally changed the equation in the ME for better or worse. Hell. My vote is for neither. The most likely is that it didn't change anything. There will always be war there. That is the historical precedent, but that only counts for so much.
    Oh I'm most certainly going back before 2003. But let me first point out that it's not the US's role to make better or worse conditions in the Middle East. But if we're going to stick our noses in and interfere, then we absolutely have a level of responsibility for conditions along the way, you know, the pottery barn rule that nobody likes to follow. I'm having a hard time understanding how the condition of Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria and now Yemen, can be seen as anything other than diminished by US policy. Also, I'd point out that people are fleeing these countries and suffering in makeshift refugee camps, dying on ferries or other boats, getting caught in the cross fire between the Islamic State fighters, the Iraqi forces along with Iranian fighters and proxies, AQ fighters, Saudi forces, Houthi fighters, have I left any out. Ask the people suffering, dying, driven from homes and lives, ask them how things are today.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?
    NO! That's a no-brainer.
    One must consider what the Trillion dollar price tag on this continuing chaos, death, destruction and mayhem, and look closely at the profit streams the were and are continuing. Hugely profitable for the Military Industrial CORPORATE Complex, its' K Street lobbyists, and the first fruits of War, the OIL Industry. Wars run on energy and that means, gas, deisel, kerosene and all the other Petro Products, and if the War and death can get you more of your core product, you can probably get a blessing from any right wing evangelist for a small charitable contribution. Cold, uncomfortable reality.

  4. #114
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Can't overlook the Arab Spring.. although we screwed the pooch in Libya, and Hillary's "Friends of Syria" meddling didn't help there
    this isn't all because of the US/west..at least not Syria..but then again without Iraq would ISIL be so powerful
    or would they just be an insurgency like they were with AQI?

  5. #115
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh I'm most certainly going back before 2003. But let me first point out that it's not the US's role to make better or worse conditions in the Middle East. But if we're going to stick our noses in and interfere, then we absolutely have a level of responsibility for conditions along the way, you know, the pottery barn rule that nobody likes to follow. I'm having a hard time understanding how the condition of Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria and now Yemen, can be seen as anything other than diminished by US policy. Also, I'd point out that people are fleeing these countries and suffering in makeshift refugee camps, dying on ferries or other boats, getting caught in the cross fire between the Islamic State fighters, the Iraqi forces along with Iranian fighters and proxies, AQ fighters, Saudi forces, Houthi fighters, have I left any out. Ask the people suffering, dying, driven from homes and lives, ask them how things are today.
    Let me ask you a very simple, perhaps cynical and cruel, question:

    Is that any different than the past 4000 years?

    As I said. I'm aware of our screw ups. Sure we have a responsibility to tread lightly. But let's be realistic. Did we make it any worse or different than the last 4000 years? It is the crossroads of 3 continents. Crossroads are always battlegrounds. So did we change it?

    I don't know. It hasn't been long enough to say. There is still war there. That isn't new. But Arab spring was interesting. The question is will the people tolerate another dictatorship?
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  6. #116
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    Can't overlook the Arab Spring.. although we screwed the pooch in Libya, and Hillary's "Friends of Syria" meddling didn't help there
    this isn't all because of the US/west..at least not Syria..but then again without Iraq would ISIL be so powerful
    or would they just be an insurgency like they were with AQI?
    Good question. Interesting pontification. Could they have brought down Sadam?
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  7. #117
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Let me ask you a very simple, perhaps cynical and cruel, question:

    Is that any different than the past 4000 years?

    As I said. I'm aware of our screw ups. Sure we have a responsibility to tread lightly. But let's be realistic. Did we make it any worse or different than the last 4000 years? It is the crossroads of 3 continents. Crossroads are always battlegrounds. So did we change it?

    I don't know. It hasn't been long enough to say. There is still war there. That isn't new. But Arab spring was interesting. The question is will the people tolerate another dictatorship?
    I mean America is a snot nosed kid in those terms, a few hundred years old. As an American, I'm concerned with the way our policies affect others. And in the Middle East, near a century of interference hasn't delivered a vibrant healthy region. Your argument is that it's always been that way, and mine is that for all the blood and treasure that the US has spent, we haven't improved a thing. And I'd prefer that we didn't have our fingerprints on it.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I mean America is a snot nosed kid in those terms, a few hundred years old. As an American, I'm concerned with the way our policies affect others. And in the Middle East, near a century of interference hasn't delivered a vibrant healthy region. Your argument is that it's always been that way, and mine is that for all the blood and treasure that the US has spent, we haven't improved a thing. And I'd prefer that we didn't have our fingerprints on it.
    A few points.

    1) I am concerned as well. I have a degree in history. I've taken classes on foreign policy. We do not have a good track record at all. That is for sure. I have always had a point of contention here that I feel is overlooked. Our foreign policy from 1945 until 1989 had one objective: anti-communism at all costs. That screwed us, our diplomatic relations, and the people involved many times. We tried and still are defining our role as the "only super power." Which may or may not be the best terminology, I'm not sure. I have a stake in that as much as any other American.

    So

    2) Has our role as the "world's only super power" been effective? That reaches beyond the ME. North Korea? Africa? Europe and the Balkans? It doesn't look like it. BUT...we are really just now starting to understand our hideous mistakes of the Cold War.

    So my argument is not really that we haven't changed anything. My argument is that we don't know. That is a scary thought to me. It means our politicians, short sighted, short termed, and egotistical, will be trying to make history by making mistakes based on assumptions of things yet to be understood even by our top historians.

    I know I am a republican. But that is more about how I usually vote. I'm a student of history before that.
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