View Poll Results: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

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Thread: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

  1. #101
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    How much history do you read? Compare what our current involvement will be to Cold War years. It won't be the same at all. Limited action. And we don't get oil from the Middle East. Europe does.



    A huge vacuum that is being filled by people stronger than Isis. They are losing ground to Iraqis. Radical Islam is not as powerful as it was in the 70s and 80s. They are a regional problem that won't be able to thrive against a state who is being sponsored by wealth beyond their measure.

    Terror has always had recruits from all over. You just didn't hear about it on the news. You should consider that a victory. Not a failure. If you hear it on the news...they were discovered.



    Ps

    I'm not justifying the war. That is your strawman. I'm a student of history. I know better than to shut the door to the impossible. USSR collapse. But feel free to construct a narrative 15 years before it is possible to judge the outcome of a war.
    Stop with the comparisons to the fall of the USSR. It's apples and oranges.

    And if you think radical Islam was more powerful in the 70's you are NOT a student of history.

    And we don't get oil from the Middle East.
    Ummmm. What? I'm lost, I have no idea where you are going with this. And after you I read that you believe we get no oil from the M.E. I've lost interest. We get almost 12-15% of our oil from Saudi Arabia alone.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad were toppled by their own people. Why should they have to live under the rule of dictators?
    The US, at least, supported the toppling of Mubarak and the MB. The US and NATO did the work necessary to topple Gaddafi, and the US was supporting the Syrian opposition with arms confiscated from Gaddafi's army and smuggled out of the Benghazi annex into Turkey for distribution amongst them.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 04-14-15 at 08:33 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #103
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Blame the West all you want and in the case of Iraq youíre right mistakes were made, however you canít just simply pin everything that has happened since on the Iraq War as the region is just too complex. Due to work I have spent time in Iraq, Turkey, Egypt and a very short visit to Syria in the past 6 months. The biggest thing that stuck out to me is how much people want change in these regions and how westernised they are becoming. People donít want dictators anymore, no oppressive regimes, women want more rights etc. 20 plus years ago these are the kind of things that people would never even whisper about and regardless they had no platform from which to discuss such ideas. As we saw from the Arab spring social media has changed everything, ideas spread faster, young people are exposed to different ideas, cultures etc. What we are seeing in countries like Egypt, Jordon, Saudi etc is young people who want to be more like the West, who want the same rights and opportunity that we do. They are moving on however the military and the dictators are not as we have seen in Syria.
    I won't disagree with you on that. I don't want dictators or oppressive regimes either, who does, other than governments who have propped them up when it's been to the advantage of their "interests" to do so. The point is that the West cannot fix that, and the fruits of our interference has born that out. Just look at the mess there.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #104
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    Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    Stop with the comparisons to the fall of the USSR. It's apples and oranges.

    And if you think radical Islam was more powerful in the 70's you are NOT a student of history.



    Ummmm. What? I'm lost, I have no idea where you are going with this. And after you I read that you believe we get no oil from the M.E. I've lost interest. We get almost 12-15% of our oil from Saudi Arabia alone.
    1) The fall of the Soviet Union isn't an "apples to oranges" comparison. Not the way I am using it. Here is why:

    Did anyone predict the fall? Would it even have been conceivable? No. Not at all. Maybe a few academics who got REALLY lucky, but that is about it. So how then does this matter? You are predicting the future. Your argument is that the ME is worse off now and that Isis and all of these terror groups will be a never ending cycle of destruction. The Soviet Union wasn't going to fall either . That is my point.

    Additionally. There has always been war in the ME. It has been the crossroads of empires. The question is how much. And will the world be better because of "Iraqi freedom." Time will tell.

    2) Soviet afghan war? Terror events leading up to 9/11?

    http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/...ec.2006.31.1.7

    Try it on. Islamic terror will die by the sword. It will be phased out by Muslims. And the biggest clue to this is Isis. They are already losing ground. And you know it.

    3) I believe I did make a typo. We don't get "much" from the ME.

    http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

    Declining use of their oil. And a majority of our oil is not from the ME. The majority is in our own hemisphere.


    Ps

    Your name is curious and amusing. Any reason to it?
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  5. #105
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    1) Your name is curious and amusing. Any reason to it?
    I've just been an XM customer for a very long time.
    "Big or small, I don't like rabbits. They always look like they're about to say something, but they never do."
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  6. #106
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    The question isn't was "Iraq" a bad idea. It wasn't "is it justified." The question was "is the me better off?"

    We know this:

    Saddam DID have WMDs at one point. Chemical weapons are WMDs. Do you think that is a dangerous thing for someone like saddam to have had? Remember that he used them. He launched scud missiles at Israel. He invaded Kuwait. He started a war with Iran. As far as "potential impact" goes...saddam had a lot. I realize didn't state that before. I should have added "potential." 14% of European oil for a start. Israel too.

    Isis isn't really gaining much support. They are dying. Wouldn't you agree? They certainly aren't the 3rd largest army in the world. Iraq was.
    We were asked, "do we have to wait for the smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud over a US city". Something that Saddam was never capable of delivering, but was useful in scaring Americans into support. Along with Powell's little vial of salt at the UN. LOL
    Last edited by Montecresto; 04-15-15 at 10:03 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  7. #107
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    We were asked, "do we have to wait for the smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud over a US city". Something that Saddam was never capable of delivering, but was useful in scaring Americans into support. Along with Powell's little vial of salt at the UN. LOL
    That wasn't the OPQ. It was "is it better off." We don't know yet. Writing history before history had occurred is a bad habit.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #108
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    That wasn't the OPQ. It was "is it better off." We don't know yet. Writing history before history had occurred is a bad habit.
    What?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #109
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What?
    Is the ME better off? How can we tell? History hasn't played out yet. Why do people insist on making these calls before they occur?

    Is it better off? It depends on what happens with Isis. Just a few short months ago Isis was dying out. Now they have had a resurgence. Any attempt to predict the outcomes is just pissing in the wind. The ME is complicated. There will always be conflict there. At least if history can be used as a predictor. But then again...history doesn't really set precedent. It just gives us an indication of what MIGHT happen.

    So you tell me. Are you able to predict the bag of cats outcome potential that is the ME?
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  10. #110
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Is the ME better off? How can we tell? History hasn't played out yet. Why do people insist on making these calls before they occur?

    Is it better off? It depends on what happens with Isis. Just a few short months ago Isis was dying out. Now they have had a resurgence. Any attempt to predict the outcomes is just pissing in the wind. The ME is complicated. There will always be conflict there. At least if history can be used as a predictor. But then again...history doesn't really set precedent. It just gives us an indication of what MIGHT happen.

    So you tell me. Are you able to predict the bag of cats outcome potential that is the ME?
    The Middle East is not better off, and perhaps you're not acknowledging reality. And US policies are the biggest cause of this.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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