View Poll Results: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

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Thread: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

  1. #91
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    ISIS were on the run and had been beaten back in Iraq, read up on "the awakening". What allowed them to spread and prosper in Syria was the West's inaction, if we had intervened earlier we could of stopped groups like ISIS from ever gaining any ground. Syria is an open wound which needed to be healed, instead we let it fester and the infection spread. Again this had little to do with the fall of Saddam.
    I disagree. I think. We didn't need to "intervene." We needed to let the wound be exposed to open air for a bit. Then maybe Assist in ending them.
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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    It's difficult to tell because its a question that simply can't be answered. Better off for who? I certainly think the Iraqi's are better off. They were on the verge of civil war and in the shadow of Iran just licking its lips awaiting a weak Iraq so they could solve their decades long boarder dispute. After Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was only a matter of time before the entire region would erupt into war. Saying that, we could have done a much better job then we did. We did a horrendous job of securing the ME. Just take a look at it today and see how terrible our decisions were. Our decision not to remove Saddam the first time we were in Iraq. Our decision to not send in enough troops and support the 2nd time we went into Iraq which lead to civil war and infiltration of forign fighters. Our decision to withdraw WAY to early and leave Iraq vunerable both politically and militarily. Iraq had no chance. Just about every country around Iraq has their hands in the country trying to influence it. It's no wonder its falling apart at the seams. Iraq should have had a large US presence probably for 40-50 years. That is the minimum time it would probably take in order to allow Iraq to build a strong military and political base so that it could function on its own. But we listened to the liberals and the anti-war. Now, terrorism has spread across the ME and in a few years, will be nearly unstoppable without an all out war in the ME that will kill tens of millions. Good job liberals!
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    So you base your opinion on the fact the term " power vacum" exists. Fair enough, didnt really answer my question or explain exactly how the fall or Iraq led to the Syrian civil war but fair enough.
    lol what? when did I say the fall of Iraq led to the Syrian civil war? I literally don't know what else to say.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    So you base your opinion on the fact the term " power vacum" exists. Fair enough, didnt really answer my question or explain exactly how the fall or Iraq led to the Syrian civil war but fair enough.
    you placed "power vacuum" in quotes as though you'd never heard the term before so I linked you the definition.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    lol what? when did I say the fall of Iraq led to the Syrian civil war? I literally don't know what else to say.
    Don't wiki quote "power vacum" and then shy away when someone asks you to explain in more detail how this power vacum directly affected the surrounding regions. If you dont want to debate about it don't post in the thread.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Don't wiki quote "power vacum" and then shy away when someone asks you to explain in more detail how this power vacum directly affected the surrounding regions. If you dont want to debate about it don't post in the thread.
    well to be fair I did give you at least one example of how it affected the surrounding region but I wasn't really talking about any one specific event. I'm not shying away from a debate with you over the middle east. I just don't really have strong opinions about any specific event in the middle east. your initial post suggested that the Iraq war had no affect on the surrounding region ("what does the Iraq war have to do with the rest of the middle east" I think is what you asked. ANY time a country's regime changes significantly like that there will be effects in the surrounding region, both good and bad. that seems like an obvious point to me, so I'm not going to sit here and debate you on it.

    I literally only quoted wiki because I thought you didn't know what the term meant. that's all.

    here's a tip: try not to assume everyone has an agenda.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    well to be fair I did give you at least one example of how it affected the surrounding region but I wasn't really talking about any one specific event. I'm not shying away from a debate with you over the middle east. I just don't really have strong opinions about any specific event in the middle east. your initial post suggested that the Iraq war had no affect on the surrounding region ("what does the Iraq war have to do with the rest of the middle east" I think is what you asked. ANY time a country's regime changes significantly like that there will be effects in the surrounding region, both good and bad. that seems like an obvious point to me, so I'm not going to sit here and debate you on it.

    I literally only quoted wiki because I thought you didn't know what the term meant. that's all.

    here's a tip: try not to assume everyone has an agenda.
    Here's a tip for you mate, don't be so vague in the future. Term's and political models dont always fit for every specific case.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom began?

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Here's a tip for you mate, don't be so vague in the future. Term's and political models dont always fit for every specific case.
    dunno why i'm responding to this but I was never vague, you just assumed I was talking about something other than what I actually said. it's a fair enough mistake because everyone does it on the internet.

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    Re: Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So if the Arabs are the ones who kill Isis? Muslims who are tired of the radicals? You don't think that would pose a problem for OTHER radical Islamic groups? The world would become a lot less safe for them. Kind of like what happened to the world for left wing terror groups at the fall of the Soviet Union.

    Isis isn't a threat and we really aren't stuck. We are dealing with the results of 85 years of involvement in the Middle East. And 70 years of political involvement. But we aren't "stuck." We could wash our hands and be done. And that is what is happening. We are going hands off.

    And if the Arab Muslims kill the radicals, then the flower of democracy might start to take ahold.
    The MIC and the Corps and Oil companies aren't going to allow us to 'wash our hands and be done with it'. I wish it was an option, but it's not. Not now.

    And I don't see ANY indication that the Arabs are tired of the radicals, actually I see just the opposite. Muslims are signing up and joining terror groups from all over the world, not just the middle east. You seem to be looking for a reason to excuse the mess we made in 2003 invasion. That invasion and dismantling the Iraqi Army will go down as one of the biggest screw-ups in American history. It left a huge vacuum, there's no doubt.
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    Is the Middle East better off since the day before Operation Iraqi Freedom be...

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    The MIC and the Corps and Oil companies aren't going to allow us to 'wash our hands and be done with it'. I wish it was an option, but it's not. Not now.
    How much history do you read? Compare what our current involvement will be to Cold War years. It won't be the same at all. Limited action. And we don't get oil from the Middle East. Europe does.

    And I don't see ANY indication that the Arabs are tired of the radicals, actually I see just the opposite. Muslims are signing up and joining terror groups from all over the world, not just the middle east. You seem to be looking for a reason to excuse the mess we made in 2003 invasion. That invasion and dismantling the Iraqi Army will go down as one of the biggest screw-ups in American history. It left a huge vacuum, there's no doubt.
    A huge vacuum that is being filled by people stronger than Isis. They are losing ground to Iraqis. Radical Islam is not as powerful as it was in the 70s and 80s. They are a regional problem that won't be able to thrive against a state who is being sponsored by wealth beyond their measure.

    Terror has always had recruits from all over. You just didn't hear about it on the news. You should consider that a victory. Not a failure. If you hear it on the news...they were discovered.



    Ps

    I'm not justifying the war. That is your strawman. I'm a student of history. I know better than to shut the door to the impossible. USSR collapse. But feel free to construct a narrative 15 years before it is possible to judge the outcome of a war.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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