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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?


  • Total voters
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Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Agreed. From how I understand what she said it sounds like she is saying being upfront about it is a problem because they might get killed. I don't think that is generally considered the problem, but in fact generally considered the solution.

Agreed. That is how I see what she is attempting to say as well.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

You can't change your legal documents but call yourself whatever you want.

When will my people be free?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

They get beaten up and even killed from time to time when a man has sex with one of them and finds out the truth after. If I remember correctly they are told to be upfront about it to avoid such responses.

Yeah, that happens and I almost don't blame them because of the deception. But it is not the issue that nicci is making it out to be. Some epidemic of violence against transgendered.

I remember reading, many, many years ago, an article in the Santa Barbara News Press about prostitution in that city. I grew up in Santa Barbara, but have never been directly aware of the goings on relating to Prostitution there or anywhere else that I have lived.

According to the article, a substantial portion of the prostitutes in Santa Barbara were transvestites—men dressed and made up to look like women—and it was a common occurrence for these transvestite prostitutes to get badly beaten up by prospective customers. I find it difficult to imagine how any such person might otherwise expect such an encounter to go. I have to think that there would be very, very few men, who, on contracting the services of a prostitute would take it very well to learn that the prostitute doesn't even have the right equipment to fulfill that service; and I can imagine no way for such a deal to end well for either party. Someone of low enough character to engage a prostitute probably isn't going to have any qualms about responding violently to a prostitute that turns out to be a fraud of that sort.
 
Re: Should perverted men who “identify” as women be legally treated as women?

Because it's really not a treatment. The condition itself is entirely untouched by hormone treatment and surgery. Saying it is a treatment is along the lines saying you treat a knee injury with painkillers. As someone that tore his ACL in both knees when he was younger I assure painkillers wouldn't have fixed the problem. As for treatment being a choice, well technically it is a choice.
The APA disagrees with you on that statement. Also surgery can fix a torn ACL, which is exactly what the SRS does. Its weird that you seem to think this is a choice when you have seen first hand what the effects a medical surgery can do for someone.

The evidence just doesn't suggest there is any connection between the two. That is not to say there won't be one found in the future, but as of yet I don't think you have a very strong case here. Hey, if there is any really move forward with genetic research maybe we can help these people these people in the future, and you know, I'm totally for doing that. I don't think it will be accepted in the transgender community, but I suppose that bridge is no where in sight yet.
We are helping them, realizing that this is not a mental disorder, like depression is a step in the right direction.


Well, the treatment does deceive people and you even admitted it by suggesting that I have meet transsexuals before and didn't even know it. The fact that they can actually pass as women to the point where I don't even think anything fishy was going on is very clear sign of deception. I'm also against all treatments that act on healthy body parts and fail to treat underlining conditions, so it's not as if I'm being inconsistent in my views here when speaking of how the surgery is unethical. Elective surgeries I will regularly condemn on this basis no matter if it's breast implants, circumcisions, face lifts, vasectomies, or this surgery here. I do not agree with people that view elective surgeries as ethical and probably never will.
Yet again, transsexuality is not a mental disorder, it never was accurately diagnosed due to the same reason homosexuality was once considered a mental disorder. Its that fear and bias of someone different that seems to keep holding us back. The SRS isn't elective and it shouldn't be considered as such, no more than a hip replacement surgery is elective or knee replacement etc. They are medical surgeries and that is something you will have to either learn to accept or not. I can't really force you to, but the consistent ignorant statements is something I will always speak up against.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

How many people are killing the transgendered to make this a relevant statement?
Keep in mind with these numbers were talking 3% of 10% of the population.

Miami: Seventh Trans Woman Murdered in U.S. in 2015 | Advocate.com (that's just for 2015).

This is also not talking about suicides which is nearly 80% for pre-treatment transsexuals.

That means 2 out of every 10 transsexuals dies before treatment is complete. That is unacceptable, the bubonic plague, for reference, killed only 50% of the people who came down with it.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Keep in mind with these numbers were talking 3% of 10% of the population.

Miami: Seventh Trans Woman Murdered in U.S. in 2015 | Advocate.com (that's just for 2015).

This is also not talking about suicides which is nearly 80% for pre-treatment transsexuals.

That means 2 out of every 10 transsexuals dies before treatment is complete. That is unacceptable, the bubonic plague, for reference, killed only 50% of the people who came down with it.

All murder is unacceptable... and that one is a man. Transwoman just confuses the facts.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

All murder is unacceptable... and that one is a man. Transwoman just confuses the facts.
Yet, this is happening every single year, and with the attitudes some people have displayed on here it is clearly a generational gap issue.

Like I said, if you don't agree with someone being transsexual that would be your own bias. I'll take the word of a professional first.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Yet, this is happening every single year, and with the attitudes some people have displayed on here it is clearly a generational gap issue.

Like I said, if you don't agree with someone being transsexual that would be your own bias. I'll take the word of a professional first.

There are no professionals with a psychological issue like this... psychology itself is a best guess science.

The fact is that a man that feels like a woman is still a man. No surgery in the world will change this fact.

I have nothing against anybody with that issue and have known a few including tons of homosexuals...

I would also agree that the generations veiw things very differently...
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

There are no professionals with a psychological issue like this... psychology itself is a best guess science.

The fact is that a man that feels like a woman is still a man. No surgery in the world will change this fact.

I have nothing against anybody with that issue and have known a few including tons of homosexuals...

I would also agree that the generations veiw things very differently...
There are quite a few LGBT psychologists that specialize in transgender issues. There is even a worldwide conference held every two years, its called WPATH, the next one is in Amsterdam.

Medical surgery does change one's biological sex especially with the help of hormones. Not to mention the suicide rate drops by nearly 75% after SRS is completed and hormone therapy continued. That alone speaks volumes about the medical side of being transsexual.
 
Re: Should perverted men who “identify” as women be legally treated as women?

The APA disagrees with you on that statement. Also surgery can fix a torn ACL, which is exactly what the SRS does. Its weird that you seem to think this is a choice when you have seen first hand what the effects a medical surgery can do for someone.

To be perfectly frank I don't really care what the APA thinks. I pretty much knew you were going to run with my ACL example and compare it directly to this surgery and low and behold that is exactly what you did. Tearing your ACL requires it to be repaired for the knee to function normally, while not getting the SRS surgery is in fact something many transgenders decide to do, and while they suffer from depression and might decide to end their life at some point, they are in no way physically impaired. While this might be mean to point out, many elective surgeries can help with depression, and like in this case here, some people that elect not to get it done will in fact decide to kill themselves over the depression that could have been combated by surgery.

We are helping them, realizing that this is not a mental disorder, like depression is a step in the right direction.

To be honest I'm not convinced it's not a mental disorder.

Yet again, transsexuality is not a mental disorder, it never was accurately diagnosed due to the same reason homosexuality was once considered a mental disorder. Its that fear and bias of someone different that seems to keep holding us back. The SRS isn't elective and it shouldn't be considered as such, no more than a hip replacement surgery is elective or knee replacement etc. They are medical surgeries and that is something you will have to either learn to accept or not. I can't really force you to, but the consistent ignorant statements is something I will always speak up against.

I have made my point clear enough on the part you quoted, and I like said, they are men and if we desire to be honest we will not continue to lie to the population that they are women.
 
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Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

There are quite a few LGBT psychologists that specialize in transgender issues. There is even a worldwide conference held every two years, its called WPATH, the next one is in Amsterdam.

Medical surgery does change one's biological sex especially with the help of hormones. Not to mention the suicide rate drops by nearly 75% after SRS is completed and hormone therapy continued. That alone speaks volumes about the medical side of being transsexual.

That is a bunch of gibberish. Why are people so motivated to lie over this issue?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

There are quite a few LGBT psychologists that specialize in transgender issues. There is even a worldwide conference held every two years, its called WPATH, the next one is in Amsterdam.

I never said that there was nobody that specialized, my point was that even the "professionals" in this issue are just guessing. There are noscientific facts about any of this. It is all about how a person feels and that could mean that it is a biological issue or a mental issue, that's all...

Medical surgery does change one's biological sex especially with the help of hormones

no it doesn't. A man having his pernis turned inside out does not make it a vagina. He does not gain a uterus either... nothing about him makes him a female.

Not to mention the suicide rate drops by nearly 75% after SRS is completed and hormone therapy continued. That alone speaks volumes about the medical side of being transsexual.

I am not interested in discussing the suicide rates of transgendered people...
 
Re: Should perverted men who “identify” as women be legally treated as women?

The APA disagrees with you on that statement. Also surgery can fix a torn ACL, which is exactly what the SRS does. Its weird that you seem to think this is a choice when you have seen first hand what the effects a medical surgery can do for someone.

The APA is a group of people that guess for a living...

We are helping them, realizing that this is not a mental disorder, like depression is a step in the right direction.

See, saying that a person has a mental disorder that has ADD is an insult when saying that when a man thinks that he is a woman and tries to change into one is not a mental disorder. I just can't take any person that thinks this way seriously. Attention problems... MENTAL DISORDER! Oh, you are a male that thinks he is a female... it's not a disorder sweetie, you really are a female and let's see how we can make that happen...

:roll:

I can't really force you to, but the consistent ignorant statements is something I will always speak up against.

And slavery was legal until it wasn't... so what?
 
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Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

They get beaten up and even killed from time to time when a man has sex with one of them and finds out the truth after. If I remember correctly they are told to be upfront about it to avoid such responses.


Let's be clear: Killing is wrong, even if you feel your sexual partner has lied to you.

I'm sure you meant to add that.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Let's be clear: Killing is wrong, even if you feel your sexual partner has lied to you.

I'm sure you meant to add that.

I'm sure I didn't. My post had a certain purpose and it wasn't to judge if beating them up or killing them was right or wrong.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I never said that there was nobody that specialized, my point was that even the "professionals" in this issue are just guessing. There are noscientific facts about any of this. It is all about how a person feels and that could mean that it is a biological issue or a mental issue, that's all...
Not much of a guess when there are several studies that show it isn't one.

no it doesn't. A man having his pernis turned inside out does not make it a vagina. He does not gain a uterus either... nothing about him makes him a female.
There are quite a few surgeries for vaginoplasty and not all of them refer to SRS, its been common for several decades.

I am not interested in discussing the suicide rates of transgendered people...
Yes, I'm not surprised you don' want to discuss medical treatments helping people. Let's ignore that ugly fact completely, and pretend we can't help these people at all.

That worked well in the past didn't it?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Not much of a guess when there are several studies that show it isn't one.

Evidently you do not understand what psychology entails...

There are quite a few surgeries for vaginoplasty and not all of them refer to SRS, its been common for several decades.

How does that negate the facts of my point?

Yes, I'm not surprised you don' want to discuss medical treatments helping people. Let's ignore that ugly fact completely, and pretend we can't help these people at all.

That worked well in the past didn't it?

This is a debate site and that is a discussion point. Suicide is sad. They need help. Move on...
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Evidently you do not understand what psychology entails...

How does that negate the facts of my point?

This is a debate site and that is a discussion point. Suicide is sad. They need help. Move on...
Of course I do, and there is little guesswork involved when you are professionally trained. There are always exceptions but most MD's don't play guess work often either.

I'm pointing out that reconstructing vagina's is a thing that has been around for decades. Feel free to look up prolapse vagina as a reason for the vaginoplasty. This isn't something new and because you think the SRS is anything other than vaginoplasty is pretty telling about the shallow knowledge.

Discussion point or not, it is relevant to the conversation. When you have 75% of the population committing suicide, because people yourself think they are lying, that is pretty telling on how much more work we need to do to educate the public this isn't some phase. Just like being homosexual isn't a phase.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Of course I do, and there is little guesswork involved when you are professionally trained. There are always exceptions but most MD's don't play guess work often either.

I'm pointing out that reconstructing vagina's is a thing that has been around for decades. Feel free to look up prolapse vagina as a reason for the vaginoplasty. This isn't something new and because you think the SRS is anything other than vaginoplasty is pretty telling about the shallow knowledge.

Discussion point or not, it is relevant to the conversation. When you have 75% of the population committing suicide, because people yourself think they are lying, that is pretty telling on how much more work we need to do to educate the public this isn't some phase. Just like being homosexual isn't a phase.


Of course you don't. Psychology is not based on facts. They observe things and make guesses about as to why it is. No psychologist can tell you why you feel they way that you do and if you think that they can you are seriously misguided. They can make educated guesses but these guesses are not facts. I studied this stuff and am quite adept at it... you are only compounding the problem really... making guesses about those that guess for a living.

Before I comment further... you are saying that I think they are lying about their feelings?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Of course you don't. Psychology is not based on facts. They observe things and make guesses about as to why it is. No psychologist can tell you why you feel they way that you do and if you think that they can you are seriously misguided. They can make educated guesses but these guesses are not facts. I studied this stuff and am quite adept at it... you are only compounding the problem really... making guesses about those that guess for a living.

Before I comment further... you are saying that I think they are lying about their feelings?
It is based off facts, I realize you might not like to hear that a field of psychology dealing with feelings would be based in fact, but that is why there are PhD's for it. Are you confusing Philosophy and Psychology? The former is not based off of facts, but more how you feel. While I don't know your educational background, someone who is advocating that Psychology is nothing but guessing isn't very far along the educational tract. Self teaching is fine, but you won't get the same experience as someone who actually had guidance under other professionals.

You've said you think they are lying because they cannot be women. Not sure how else you want me to interpret that.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

You've said you think they are lying because they cannot be women. Not sure how else you want me to interpret that.

I don't honestly debate liars. Show where I said that I that transgendered people are "lying" or you will be relegated to the waste bin of the intellectually dishonest.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

While I don't know your educational background, someone who is advocating that Psychology is nothing but guessing isn't very far along the educational tract. Self teaching is fine, but you won't get the same experience as someone who actually had guidance under other professionals.

Or has insight far beyond yours... B.A. and a Masters degree... you?

It is based off facts, I realize you might not like to hear that a field of psychology dealing with feelings would be based in fact, but that is why there are PhD's for it. Are you confusing Philosophy and Psychology? The former is not based off of facts, but more how you feel.

Then you should have no problem showing these facts... the ones that show how "feelings" can be factually identified. Any person that has been to counselling knows that the counsellor does nothing more than help and guide, at best, the client. They attempt to get to the root cause of emotional understanding but nothing about it is fact. The client "feels" what might be correct. "Feeling" that you are a woman when you are in fact a man does not mean that the man is biologically a woman or that he can become one... just that he "feels" like one.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

"Feeling" that you are a woman when you are in fact a man does not mean that the man is biologically a woman or that he can become one... just that he "feels" like one.

This will be considered hate speech once the full transformation to the United States of Social Justice is complete, so you better learn how to check that cis-privilege soon bub. ;)


Also, I'd just like to point out that you are asking for facts and logic from somebody that:

1) Wants us all to just trust their feelings instead of listening to the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, which says that people who think "they were born the wrong sex" are suffering from a mental illness.

2) Wants us all to believe that the 75% suicide rate (another clear sign of mental illness) is actually because "people like us think they are lying", and it's somehow proof of how oppressed they are.

3) Thinks that the medical procedure of turning a penis inside-out is "no different from a simple vaginoplasty".


Or in other words, good luck on this one.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

This will be considered hate speech once the full transformation to the United States of Social Justice is complete, so you better learn how to check that cis-privilege soon bub. ;)


Also, I'd just like to point out that you are asking for facts and logic from somebody that:

1) Wants us all to just trust their feelings instead of listening to the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, which says that people who think "they were born the wrong sex" are suffering from a mental illness.

2) Wants us all to believe that the 75% suicide rate (another clear sign of mental illness) is actually because "people like us think they are lying", and it's somehow proof of how oppressed they are.

3) Thinks that the medical procedure of turning a penis inside-out is "no different from a simple vaginoplasty".


Or in other words, good luck on this one.

When the "full transformation" is complete, people will come to understand that that is personal consumption and a pursuit of happiness issue and none of government's business, having nothing to do with Social Justice than buying bubblegum.
 
Well, what do you think?

If that's what turns them on and they don't impact other people's rights like the gay lobby is doing, I don't see any reason why not.
 
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