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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

  • Total voters
    160
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Unrepresented said:
I'm arguing no one's equivalent.
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Well that is just purposely missing the point to support an illogical argument.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Henrin said:
But that is factually incorrect.
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You like to make these assertions, but they are usually quite shallow. Your posts are better when you are thoughtful about what you have to say.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

MildSteel said:
The fraud is people who want to impose a standards of gender and sex based on their malice. Therefore strong laws are needed to protect transgendered people from the malice of such persons.
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Well if the individual is a male and SSM(notice what the second S stands for) then it would be an illegal marriage.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Bodhisattva said:
Perhaps the same way that handicapped parking is allowed. I see the pass and assume it is legit. I don't know if the guy is really handicapped or not.
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And you don't know if the woman or man entering the locker room or restroom is really a man or a woman. No one is there to check to ensure either in the vast majority of places. Unless they are actually breaking a law, then what is the issue? So what if someone is uncomfortable? Wouldn't some women be just as uncomfortable with someone like China or "Caroline" from above in the restroom or locker room too? What about some bully from high school or someone wearing a burqa? How about a transgender man (you know a woman according to those who believe sex is immutable)? Afterall many transgendered men look an awful lot more like men than they do women.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Henrin said:
Well if the individual is a male and SSM(notice what the second S stands for) then it would be an illegal marriage.
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Please note your use of the word "IF."
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

roguenuke said:
And you don't know if the woman or man entering the locker room or restroom is really a man or a woman. No one is there to check to ensure either in the vast majority of places. Unless they are actually breaking a law, then what is the issue? So what if someone is uncomfortable? Wouldn't some women be just as uncomfortable with someone like China or "Caroline" from above in the restroom or locker room too? What about some bully from high school or someone wearing a burqa? How about a transgender man (you know a woman according to those who believe sex is immutable)? Afterall many transgendered men look an awful lot more like men than they do women.
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LOL @ bully in a burga!

The BURGA BULLY!!! :lamo

Not to belittle what you said at all. Good points!

Just thought that was funny.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

roguenuke said:
And you don't know if the woman or man entering the locker room or restroom is really a man or a woman. No one is there to check to ensure either in the vast majority of places. Unless they are actually breaking a law, then what is the issue? So what if someone is uncomfortable? Wouldn't some women be just as uncomfortable with someone like China or "Caroline" from above in the restroom or locker room too? What about some bully from high school or someone wearing a burqa? How about a transgender man (you know a woman according to those who believe sex is immutable)? Afterall many transgendered men look an awful lot more like men than they do women.
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I know, you want to argue nudity and shared showers and anybody that has a problem with that is irrational and a bigot... I mean, you walked around naked and used to change in front of twenty sailers and were not attacked so everybody's got to feel the same or else we are irrational. Got it. Anything else?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Meanwhile, ENDA, legislation that would offer transgendered people protection from discrimination, has been stalled in Congress since 1994. It's time to move forward folks.

The Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) is legislation proposed in the United States Congress that would prohibit discrimination in hiring and employment on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity by employers with at least 15 employees.

ENDA has been introduced in every Congress since 1994 except the 109th. Similar legislation has been introduced without passage since 1974.[1] The bill gained its best chance at passing after the Democratic Party gained the majority after twelve years of Republican majorities in the 2006 midterm elections. In 2007, gender identity protections were added to the legislation for the first time. Some sponsors believed that even with a Democratic majority, ENDA did not have enough votes to pass the House of Representatives with transgender inclusion and dropped it from the bill, which passed the House and then died in the Senate. President George W. Bush threatened to veto the measure. LGBT advocacy organizations and the LGBT community were divided over support of the modified bill.

In 2009, following Democratic gains in the 2008 elections, and after the divisiveness of the 2007 debate, Rep. Barney Frank introduced a transgender-inclusive version of ENDA. He introduced it again in 2011, and Sen. Jeff Merkley introduced it in the Senate. On November 7, 2013, Merkley's bill passed the Senate with bipartisan support by a vote of 64–32. President Barack Obama supports the bill's passage.
....
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Employment Non-Discrimination Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Bob Blaylock said:
Looks like a pretty clear-cut case to me. The marriage was based on a fraud, in that the “wife” was really a man, who fraudulently presented himself as a woman. Even if the mockery of “same sex marriage” were recognized, this still was a fraudulent marriage, and the person who committed this fraud certainly does not deserve to profit from it. This creep belongs in prison.
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There was no evidence that the separation was due to the husband not knowing about the sex change. The wife claimed that he did know earlier. In fact, according to her account, she still had male genitalia when they met, and he was there for her recovery. They were in fact already married when she had the surgery. She was legally a woman, but physically a man when they got married. I highly doubt he wouldn't have noticed.

Page 4: Transgender Widow Sued by Husband's Family Over Benefits - ABC News
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

roguenuke said:
There was no evidence that the separation was due to the husband not knowing about the sex change. The wife claimed that he did know earlier. In fact, according to her account, she still had male genitalia when they met, and he was there for her recovery. They were in fact already married when she had the surgery. She was legally a woman, but physically a man when they got married. I highly doubt he wouldn't have noticed.

Page 4: Transgender Widow Sued by Husband's Family Over Benefits - ABC News
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Yep, that would have been hard not to notice.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Bodhisattva said:
I know, you want to argue nudity and shared showers and anybody that has a problem with that is irrational and a bigot... I mean, you walked around naked and used to change in front of twenty sailers and were not attacked so everybody's got to feel the same or else we are irrational. Got it. Anything else?
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No. There are absolutely no stats to show that it is dangerous to a woman to have transgendered women changing in the locker rooms with them or for a policy that allows people into the locker room of the gender they identify as. And the women using the locker room, do not own the locker room. They don't get to make the policy about who uses it, the owners do.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

MildSteel said:
Please note your use of the word "IF."
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That is of no importance to the case in question. The individual is a man and from the sounds of it they were married before surgery.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

roguenuke said:
No. There are absolutely no stats to show that it is dangerous to a woman to have transgendered women changing in the locker rooms with them or for a policy that allows people into the locker room of the gender they identify as. And the women using the locker room, do not own the locker room. They don't get to make the policy about who uses it, the owners do.
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As if you really support the owner making that decision.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Bodhisattva said:
I know, you want to argue nudity and shared showers and anybody that has a problem with that is irrational and a bigot... I mean, you walked around naked and used to change in front of twenty sailers and were not attacked so everybody's got to feel the same or else we are irrational. Got it. Anything else?
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Do you believe that story of hers? I don't.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Manc Skipper said:
Says the one who determines gender by the presence of a penis.
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Say what? Well appearances can be deceiving. These days that life lesson is more important than ever thanks to improper medical treatment.

Edit: Lol, I can't believe I typed conceiving first.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Henrin said:
That is of no importance to the case in question. The individual is a man and from the sounds of it they were married before surgery.
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Which would make a difference to the charge of "fraud" and could very well make a difference when it comes to the case being revisited by the court with new court rulings dealing with marriage.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Bodhisattva said:
Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.
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So the poor guy who's had his amputated due to cancer (yes, it happens) is no longer male?

Come on Bod, these issues are never that black and white. Gender identity, like sexuality, is so much to do with what you feel inside.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Just the facts of the matter. In genetically healthy individuals XY results in the male sex and that cannot be changed. Physiologically and hard coded in the indivudual's DNA their body is male. Similarly XX is female. No amount of surgery, self presentation or self image can change a person's biological sex. You and your body forever carry's those genes and DNA testing of your cells will lead someone to believe you are male or female regardless of how the body may be surgically or hormonally altered.

Legal differentiation exists in some cases directly due to the fact that real men and women are biologically different from each other with issues facing each sex. Women can get pregnancy coverage from insurance and for other women's health issues, men may get prostate cancer, women (if not infertile) may become pregnant and have different rights and regulations pertaining to reproduction, women also are not forced to sign up for selective service while men are. There are biological changes, and altering your original genitals/body to mimic what the opposite sex has will not result in functional ones. An XY man is not going to have ovaries, a uterus, or a true "vagina." They have an altered form of what they were born with. An XX woman is never going to have a penis, testicles, a prostate or other organs specific to men. The fact is, in genetically healthy individuals your sex never changes and XY denotes male while XX denotes female, there is no changing that. The fact remains that many legal differences between men and women are due to our bodies being different with reproductive health being a major player. A transgender individual will not have the functioning reproductive organs of their desired sex, nor can they ever biologically be their desired sex. Should a transwoman take out pregnancy coverage? Should they be on birth control to prevent pregnancy? Should doctors and others know that they have no internal female organs when making treatment decisions? Should they have rights/privileges afforded to them that are given to women on the basis of biology like free birth control even though there is no real use for it in them?

From a personal/social standpoint there are gender roles given by society that aren't really dependent upon biology. One may alter their bodies to mimic that of the opposite sex and aesthetically pass as the opposite sex. Their self defined gender is part of their personal identity and is their personal right. I believe in the right to pursue happiness and in my view a man saying he is a woman, going through the surgery on their own choice and presenting how they want to as their own choice is their right and doesn't really harm anyone as far as their personal choice is concerned. I think the government should accommodate their desired sex by allowing fully transitioned individuals to designate themselves as M or F on legal documents, but I do think distinction that they are trans should be made because there are fundamental differences between a trans person and someone who identifies with their birth sex. The two are not the same, a transwoman is not a real biological woman and visa versa. To ignore the facts and supplant them with this hyper-pro LGBT mindset that dictates they are absolutely without a doubt equal and same as their desired sex is not merited or rational. As far as legal recognition goes, they aren't biologically female. To pass off as one and then offer them pregnancy coverage, try to avoid the draft (pre-transition), wanting to denote themselves as a "mother" of a previous biological child or demand restroom use or other such things shouldn't be legally protected nor should the government entertain their personal identity when the biological facts go against that. When it comes to issues of identity like what your license says, how you name yourself (Ms. Mrs.) and other legal things that should be recognized.

Bottom line though, they have the right to be trans and people shouldn't stop them. But they also should never have the right to demand that others recognize their status, force their identity and definition of gender upon others or be recognized biologically as anything other than their birth sex.
 
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Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

It's rare for me to say so about such a long detailed post, but Digsbe's manifesto up there EXACTLY matches my position.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Your Star said:
No, you are the one that is incorrect.
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Sorry, but biologically I'm 100% correct. What you want is a woman, not a man.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Henrin said:
Sorry, but biologically I'm 100% correct. What you want is a woman, not a man.
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It isn't your place to tell anyone what they want in a partner. An otherwise straight woman could want a transgender woman. Some marry a man and end up with a transgender woman that they stick out the marriage with because they love that person.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

roguenuke said:
It isn't your place to tell anyone what they want in a partner. An otherwise straight woman could want a transgender woman. Some marry a man and end up with a transgender woman that they stick out the marriage with because they love that person.
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Hey, they can do whatever, but I see no reason to lie about anything.
 
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