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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?


  • Total voters
    160
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Biologically, the definitions of male and female are absolute.
The practical evidence deviates from the binary biological definition.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Woman. An adult human, who is biologically female. It's easy, and completely clear, if you use biological sex rather than Politically-Correct “gender” as the basis for the definition.
You're using a word to define itself. That's not particularly objective.
 
Re: Should perverted men who “identify” as women be legally treated as women?

The social construct exists, and is functional, because it is based on immutable biological reality.

You're trying to replace it with a dysfunctional social construct based on Politically-Correct madness. There's no way for that to end well.
The social construct exists because there's a society to construct it.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

No brainier, absolutely.

The same goes for transmen; they should be treated as men.

Nah, I'd rather have both treated as women.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

This is intolerance of difference of opinion.

What it should be classified is a mental disorder.

There is a disorder where people want thier limbs cut off. Should we indulge that?


And before you throw out the "there is scientific proof". no there isn't there are theory and hypothesis, there is no factual determination. And while we don't know, forcing others to indulge in others fantasy isn't the answer.


Run what you brung. if you have a penis and want to wear a dress, godspeed, if you are an adult and you can find someone willing to give you harmones, and surgery godspeed.

But to expect others, no, coerce others to accept your views, is wrong.



I personally don't care what bathroom they use, I can see why men claiming to be women and wanting to enter womens bathrooms, would be viewed as troubling by some.

I've no problem using the womens' bathroom with transwomen, or using mixed facilities with men. YOU GO INTO THE CUBICLE AND YOU LOCK THE FREAKING DOOR. It's actually quite simple.

Note the man who claims ad nauseum not to be a bigot is now having a go at the trans community.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

No they aren't.

Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.

Except for the fact that we do not identify people that way, not in real life.

Let's take Caroline for instance:



Caroline could easily be one of those people that someone stops and says "you are a man, you shouldn't be in here", yet she was born intersex.

Now, I realize that she would be an exception to this, but the problem is that we judge people's sex/gender off of the way they look, and then claim that they are their sex because of what they were born with. Plus, given the differences in how transgendered people's brains have been shown to operate, to function, it could very well be that they have some sort of issue with how their brain functions when it comes to gender, making theirs function much closer to that of the opposite sex of their borne genitalia.

Then there is the woman who was genetically a man and still ended up being a girl, just born without a uterus.



Again, I get that this is a rare disease, and not normal of most transgenders (as far as we know), but these types of things happen and why should someone have to prove this is what causes them to be "different" rather than simply an issue with the wiring in their brains? We may simply haven't discovered yet exactly why they are the way they are and it is some sort of actual disorder or genetic issue, especially for many such people. There is no reason to make them wait.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I think the question of what exactly that would mean is a good one, but in theory I think they should. In theory though, women and men are treated equally before the law, so "legally" I'm not sure what the difference would be.

Broadly speaking in laws where a distinction is made, e.g. marriage, should transwomen be treated as women.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.

If the penis is surgically turned inside out?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

link to this please..

I have already discussed it, but to repeat:

The condition of being a woman is based on more than just a composition of chromosomes, and the nature of a person's reproductive system. This is easily demonstrated by THE FACT than some women have the chromosomal structure as males and do not have the organs necessary for reproduction. While it is true that such instances are exceptions, they are there nonetheless, and these individuals do not feel that they are not women as a result. In fact some do not notice it until they note that they do not experience the phenomenon of menstruation.

GIRLS with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes.

Swyer syndrome

Rather the condition of being a woman can be more accurately described as an experience characterized by such things as

1. Sexuality
2. Tastes in the presentation of appearance, such as choice of clothing
3. Biological functions
4. Anatomical structures
5. Tastes in activity
6. Tastes in aesthetics

Although there is variance among women within these items, when we note a strong presence of some or all of these that are common to women in general, then we can say that the person is indeed undergoing the experience of being a woman. As such, it is not unrealistic to treat them in that way, at the very least in the legal sense.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/221321-should-transwomen-legally-treated-women-w-65-a-18.html#post1064512300

So a few points

1. Although one can put forward the notion that a women is someone who has XY chromosomes, we observe that there are women born with male chromosomes who identify themselves as female.

2. Although some women who have the biological characteristics of female chromosomes and sexual reproductive organs, they still identify themselves as being male.

3. Altering biological characteristics does not necessarily result in the self identification of being a woman.

Therefore we can conclude that the experience of being a woman, although it is related to biological characteristics, is not necessarily dependent on them, i.e. there is more to being a woman than having female biological and anatomical characteristics.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Except for the fact that we do not identify people that way, not in real life.

Let's take Caroline for instance:



Caroline could easily be one of those people that someone stops and says "you are a man, you shouldn't be in here", yet she was born intersex.

Now, I realize that she would be an exception to this, but the problem is that we judge people's sex/gender off of the way they look, and then claim that they are their sex because of what they were born with. Plus, given the differences in how transgendered people's brains have been shown to operate, to function, it could very well be that they have some sort of issue with how their brain functions when it comes to gender, making theirs function much closer to that of the opposite sex of their borne genitalia.

Then there is the woman who was genetically a man and still ended up being a girl, just born without a uterus.



Again, I get that this is a rare disease, and not normal of most transgenders (as far as we know), but these types of things happen and why should someone have to prove this is what causes them to be "different" rather than simply an issue with the wiring in their brains? We may simply haven't discovered yet exactly why they are the way they are and it is some sort of actual disorder or genetic issue, especially for many such people. There is no reason to make them wait.


None of the (my) arguments are about an absloute...
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Here's something of interest that talks about the types of problems that transgendered people face


Many Americans have a profound lack of understanding of what it means to be transgender. Consequently, transgender people commonly face a wide variety of discriminatory barriers to full equality. Transgender people sometimes face difficulties meeting their basic needs (getting a job, housing, or health care) or in having their gender identity respected (like in the simple act of going to a public restroom).

Much of the discrimination transgender people face mirrors that experienced by lesbian, gay and bisexual people, but is often more severe. Additionally, transgender people face a range of legal issues that LGB people rarely do: identity documents not reflective of one’s gender, sex-segregated public restrooms and other facilities, dress codes that perpetuate traditional gender norms, and barriers to access to appropriate health care.
...

https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/discrimination-against-transgender-people
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

This is a concept I had not heard of before. Transfeminism, it is rather interesting

Feminism vs transfeminism
Common foundations

A core tenet of feminism is that biology does not and must not equal destiny. The idea that women should not be held down by traditional gender roles plays a major role in all feminisms. Transfeminism expands on that premise to argue that people in general should not be confined by sex/gender norms.

Feminists have traditionally explored the boundaries of what it means to be a woman. Transfeminists argue that trans people and cisgender feminists confront society's conventional views of sex and gender in similar ways. Transgender liberation theory offers feminism a new vantage point from which to view gender as a social construct, even offering a new meaning of gender.

Transfeminist critics of mainstream feminism say that as an institutionalized movement, feminism has lost sight of the basic idea that biology is not destiny. In fact, they argue, many feminists seem perfectly comfortable equating sex and gender and insisting on a given destiny for trans persons based on nothing more than biology. Transgenderism resists and challenges the fixedness of gender that traditional approaches to women's studies depend upon.

Transgender people are frequently targets of anti-trans violence. While non-trans women also routinely face violence, transfeminists understand anti-trans violence to be a form of gender policing.

Differences

Despite the similarities, there are also differences between traditional feminism and transfeminism. Transfeminism stands in stark contrast to second-wave feminism. Transfeminists often criticize the ideas of a universal sisterhood, aligning more with the third wave's appreciation for the diversity of women's experience. Citing their common experience, directly challenge the idea that femininity is an entirely social construction. Instead, transfeminists view gender as a multifaceted set of diverse intrinsic and social qualities. For example, there are trans/cis men/women who express themselves in an unusually feminine or masculine way. Because this strongly affects how the person experiences their gender, and also their standing within patriarchy, transfeminists would argue that masculine/feminine expression is an important concept worthy of feminist inquiry, to be compared and contrasted with both birth sex and gender identity.
....

Transfeminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

None of the (my) arguments are about an absloute...

I didn't say they were. But if we let one of these women (one of which who has been living life as a man due to being of both sexes at birth and having parents choose male), and the other being a genetic man, but physically a woman, be in the locker room with other women, then what factor allows that? Because they have a rare disorder? And what gives anyone a right to know those things?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Broadly speaking in laws where a distinction is made, e.g. marriage, should transwomen be treated as women.

I'm reminded of the case in Texas. A man - fire fighter? police officer? - died in the line of duty. His wife of course would get his death benefits. Except - his parents barged in; said she was transgender and therefore the marriage wasn't "real" (or something like that). So they fought to get the death benefits instead of her.

I'm not sure who won the case legally. Morally, those parents sucked.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I'm reminded of the case in Texas. A man - fire fighter? police officer? - died in the line of duty. His wife of course would get his death benefits. Except - his parents barged in; said she was transgender and therefore the marriage wasn't "real" (or something like that). So they fought to get the death benefits instead of her.

I'm not sure who won the case legally. Morally, those parents sucked.

The parents did. However, it should be going back to court, probably due to the questions about legal same sex marriages and gender recognition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Araguz
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I'm reminded of the case in Texas. A man - fire fighter? police officer? - died in the line of duty. His wife of course would get his death benefits. Except - his parents barged in; said she was transgender and therefore the marriage wasn't "real" (or something like that). So they fought to get the death benefits instead of her.

I'm not sure who won the case legally. Morally, those parents sucked.

Yes! I remember that. I felt so sorry for her. Here is a wedding picture

628x471.jpg


Looks like the a Texas appeals court overturned a lower court ruling. So the case is still being litigated. It is a good example of the types of trials and tribulations that transgendered women face

A Texas appeals court on Thursday overturned a judge's ruling that had voided the marriage of a transgender widow whose firefighter husband died battling a blaze.

The 13th Texas Court of Appeals sent the case of Nikki Araguz back to the lower court, saying "there is a genuine issue of material fact regarding (Araguz's) sex and whether the marriage was a same sex marriage."

In 2011, state District Judge Randy Clapp in Wharton County ruled that the marriage between Nikki Araguz and her husband Thomas Araguz was "void as a matter of law."

"This has never been about money for me, it has been about the validity and recognition of my marriage and my relationship to my late husband," said Nikki Araguz during a press briefing at her Houston art gallery Thursday night. "I continue to persevere because of the people who don't have a voice, that has historically been transgender people in America. They have not had a voice, someone who has been able to champion their cause," she said.

Thomas Araguz's mother and his first wife had challenged the marriage's validity, arguing the fallen firefighter's estate should go to his two sons because Nikki Araguz was born a man and Texas does not recognize same-sex marriage.

Nikki Araguz, 38, had argued in court she had done everything medically and legally possible to show she is female and was legally married under Texas law and that she's entitled to widow's benefits. "I didn't bring this case into public light, my late husband's ex-wife chose to do take that route, what I did choose to do was answer the call that God left me in charge of," said Araguz.

Kent Rutter, Nikki Araguz's attorney, said his client was very pleased by Thursday's ruling.

"This decision recognizes that transgender Texans have the right to marry the person that they love," he said.

Attorneys for Simona Longoria, Thomas Araguz's mother, and Heather Delgado, his ex-wife, did not immediately return phone calls seeking comment.

Longoria and her family have said Thomas Araguz learned of his wife's gender history just before his death and had planned to end the marriage.

But Nikki Araguz, who remarried in 2013, has insisted Thomas Araguz fully supported her through the surgical process to become a woman. She underwent surgery two months after they were married in 2008. Thomas Araguz died July 2010 while fighting a fire at an egg farm near Wharton, located 60 miles southwest of Houston. He was 30.

In its 26-page ruling, the three-judge panel of the Corpus Christi-based appeals court wrote that Clapp erred by essentially saying in his ruling that Nikki Araguz was a man at the time of her husband's death.

Attorneys for Longoria and Delgado had argued Nikki Araguz was born with male sex organs and had such organs at the time of her marriage, making it invalid.

The appeals court said more expert testimony on this issue is needed as the only such testimony presented was an affidavit by one of Nikki Araguz's doctors, who wrote that she was medically and psychologically female as a result of her compliance with the standards of care adopted by the World Professional Association of Transgender Health.

The three-judge panel also wrote that changes made in 2009 to the Texas Family Code that allowed transgendered people to use proof of their sex change to get a marriage license legislatively overruled a previous court decision that had been used as legal precedent in such cases. In that 1999 case, a San Antonio woman's wrongful-death claim brought on behalf of her husband was thrown out, with a court ruling that although the woman had undergone a sex-change operation, she was actually a man, based on her original birth certificate.

Texas courts rule in favor of transgender widower - FOX 26 News | MyFoxHouston
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I'm reminded of the case in Texas. A man - fire fighter? police officer? - died in the line of duty. His wife of course would get his death benefits. Except - his parents barged in; said she was transgender and therefore the marriage wasn't "real" (or something like that). So they fought to get the death benefits instead of her.

I'm not sure who won the case legally. Morally, those parents sucked.

Looks like a pretty clear-cut case to me. The marriage was based on a fraud, in that the “wife” was really a man, who fraudulently presented himself as a woman. Even if the mockery of “same sex marriage” were recognized, this still was a fraudulent marriage, and the person who committed this fraud certainly does not deserve to profit from it. This creep belongs in prison.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

No, they are women, and I am attracted to women. I would have no problem dating another woman.

But that is factually incorrect.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

I didn't say they were. But if we let one of these women (one of which who has been living life as a man due to being of both sexes at birth and having parents choose male), and the other being a genetic man, but physically a woman, be in the locker room with other women, then what factor allows that? Because they have a rare disorder? And what gives anyone a right to know those things?

Perhaps the same way that handicapped parking is allowed. I see the pass and assume it is legit. I don't know if the guy is really handicapped or not.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Looks like a pretty clear-cut case to me. The marriage was based on a fraud, in that the “wife” was really a man, who fraudulently presented himself as a woman. Even if the mockery of “same sex marriage” were recognized, this still was a fraudulent marriage, and the person who committed this fraud certainly does not deserve to profit from it. This creep belongs in prison.

The fraud is people who want to impose a standards of gender and sex based on their malice. Therefore strong laws are needed to protect transgendered people from the malice of such persons.
 
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