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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

  • Total voters
    160
Absentglare said:
No, look up anything academic on gender, dude.
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The current popular academic thought on gender has left transgenders with a 40% suicide rate. I'm unimpressed.

What do you not get?

Do you hear all the bigotry in this thread?
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I don't get how a 19x higher suicide rate justifies amputating healthy organs.
 
roguenuke said:
Not all postop in that study and it requires more than just strong family support, because those other things I mentioned, that you failed to address, do have an impact.
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So you're going to continue to believe that it's all a matter of acceptance, despite any evidence, despite evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that anyone speaking out against gender theory gets labeled a bigot.

What do you base your thoughts on, exactly?
 
Omgitsme said:
First of all that same study you got that information from says that it is successful at alleviating gender dysphoria.
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And you can also alleviate anorexia by performing liposuction. Does that mean we should give anorexics liposuction?

And to answer your question do you remember how I said that if you do the math the attempted suicide rate in the first study for post op transsexuals was 8.9%? That is much much lower then the 40% attempted suicide rate for transsexuals in every stage of transition (including before transition). So yeah either hormones or SRS or both are reducing the suicide rate by an incredible amount. And if we want to keep lowering the attempted suicide rate then the first study you posted suggests that we improve psychiatric and somatic care after SRS. And in my own personal opinion we could bring that number down even more by being a more trans friendly culture.
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Do you know why the study did not report that the rate was only 8.9%? Because they had only 10 cases versus 5 for the general population. That's a shockingly low rate to try to guess percentages. The numbers are so low because of the way that they structured the study to compare only to controls and also due to the fact that they're only looking at successful suicides.

Other studies, like the one that I've linked, have shown that the suicide attempt for those who have had a sex change operation is 40%. There's no real way to explain that away.
 
phattonez said:
And you can also alleviate anorexia by performing liposuction. Does that mean we should give anorexics liposuction?
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No you cant. Thats the thing with anorexia. No matter how skinny you are you still feel like you arnt.

phattonez said:
Do you know why the study did not report that the rate was only 8.9%? Because they had only 10 cases versus 5 for the general population. That's a shockingly low rate to try to guess percentages. The numbers are so low because of the way that they structured the study to compare only to controls and also due to the fact that they're only looking at successful suicides.
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Even then it isnt going to jump up another 31%.

phattonez said:
Other studies, like the one that I've linked, have shown that the suicide attempt for those who have had a sex change operation is 40%. There's no real way to explain that away.
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Except as I pointed out mulitple times now it doesnt show that. Remember thats a lifetime suicide rate.
 
phattonez said:
So you're going to continue to believe that it's all a matter of acceptance, despite any evidence, despite evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that anyone speaking out against gender theory gets labeled a bigot.

What do you base your thoughts on, exactly?
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You don't have evidence to the contrary though. There is an obvious reduction in suicide rates after sex changes for many who suffer from gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean that they will be accepted as the new gender afterward (heck this very thread is asking people if they should be accepted as the sex they just changed themselves to), nor does it change the fact that they are going to need help to accept the fact that their intimate relationships are going to be limited, even moreso than so many other groups, especially heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals (in general) due to their transgenderism, transsexualism.
 
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Omgitsme said:
No you cant. Thats the thing with anorexia. No matter how skinny you are you still feel like you arnt.
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You have no evidence for claiming that.

Even then it isnt going to jump up another 31%.
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Do you know what the law of large numbers is about?

Except as I pointed out mulitple times now it doesnt show that. Remember thats a lifetime suicide rate.
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Yup, so wouldn't we expect the suicide rate for those who have had a sex change operation to be lower? After all, their gender dysphoria has supposedly been relieved.
 
roguenuke said:
You don't have evidence to the contrary though.
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I can't prove a negative. You show me the evidence that acceptance is what causes the suicides.

There is an obvious reduction in suicide rates after sex changes for many who suffer from gender dysphoria.
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Where is the evidence of that?
 
phattonez said:
You have no evidence for claiming that.
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Umm that what anorexia is. You feel like you are overweight no matter how skinny you get.

phattonez said:
Do you know what the law of large numbers is about?
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Yes. And the sample size was 324 and the population size is estimated to be about 700,000 so acording to this. Sample Size Calculator - Confidence Level, Confidence Interval, Sample Size, Population Size, Relevant Population - Creative Research Systems the confidence level is roughly 5.45%. So yeah its not going to jump up another 31%.

phattonez said:
Yup, so wouldn't we expect the suicide rate for those who have had a sex change operation to be lower? After all, their gender dysphoria has supposedly been relieved.
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...lifetime suicide rate...

Post #1140

Omgitsme said:
Its a lifetime suicide rate. So in other words someone who is pretransition could attempt suicide and survive then get hormones and SRS and then get counted in the "have had SRS and attempted suicide" category. In order to show that SRS is ineffective at lowering the suicide rate you would need a study that compares two groups of trans people. The first group would be trans people who have not had SRS but have started hormones and only count suicide attempts after they have started hormones. And the second group would be trans people who have started hormones and HRT and only count suicide attempts after SRS. Does that make sense at all? If not I could try and explain it better.
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Post #1155

Omgitsme said:
Whats ridiculous is I just explained how that 40% attempted suicide rate you keep talking about was a lifetime suicide rate and I just got done explaining that what that means is that if a transgender person attempts suicide before they start transition and survive then go on hormones and get SRS and not attempt suicide again they will still be counted in the catagory of "had SRS and attempted suicide". So those numbers are not at all representative of post op transsexuals attempted suicide rate. You didnt even try and disprove that. You just keep repeating that over and over again.
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So now im going to ask the same question I asked in post #1168

Omgitsme said:
Did you even read anything I have been posting?
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/u...girls-bathroom.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

article said:
More than 100 students at Hillsboro High School, about an hour south of St Louis, walked out of class on Monday in protest.
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My faith in the generation that's in high school right now just went up a tiny bit...

article said:
“My goal is for the district and parents to have a policy discussion,” said Derrick Good, a lawyer who has two daughters in the district and wants students to use either facilities based on their biological sex or other gender-neutral facilities.
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And with that, my faith in this current generation of parents went up a little too.

article said:
Ms. Perry, who dropped out of the physical education class that prompted her use of the girls’ locker room, spent the two hours in her guidance counselor’s office.
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lol. They take the special snowflake out of P.E. and put "her" in the counselors office. She better get used to that situation... a future of therapy sessions awaits.
 
phattonez said:
I can't prove a negative. You show me the evidence that acceptance is what causes the suicides.

Where is the evidence of that?
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In the post I quoted, you claimed to have evidence to the contrary that shows that suicides within the population we are not because of lack of acceptance by friends, family, coworkers, society in general. So which is it? Is there evidence or is evidence not possible?

The evidence was already posted.
 
Omgitsme said:
Umm that what anorexia is. You feel like you are overweight no matter how skinny you get.
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No matter how skinny you get? That's the claim that you've provided no evidence for.

Yes. And the sample size was 324 and the population size is estimated to be about 700,000 so acording to this. Sample Size Calculator - Confidence Level, Confidence Interval, Sample Size, Population Size, Relevant Population - Creative Research Systems the confidence level is roughly 5.45%. So yeah its not going to jump up another 31%.
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You can't compare attempted suicides with successful suicides, which is the only factor that this study looks at.

...lifetime suicide rate...

Post #1140
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And yet we still have evidence of a 19x higher successful suicide rate than the general population. So again, what is the rationale for mutilating functioning organs?
 
roguenuke said:
In the post I quoted, you claimed to have evidence to the contrary that shows that suicides within the population we are not because of lack of acceptance by friends, family, coworkers, society in general. So which is it? Is there evidence or is evidence not possible?

The evidence was already posted.
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There is evidence of an attempted suicide rate of 33% even with strong family support. So what makes you believe that the suicide rate is due entirely to acceptance and not due to the fact that they are deluded about who they really are?
 
phattonez said:
No matter how skinny you get? That's the claim that you've provided no evidence for.
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Sigh...Anorexia Nervosa - National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders

"3. Body Image Problems

When a person with anorexia looks into a mirror he/she does not often see an accurate reflection. A person with anorexia sees him/herself as fat, even if he/she is dangerously thin. This is a very frightening experience and feels very real – driving the person to diet"

Doesnt matter if they are dangerously thin or not. They see themselves as overweight.

However I did learn something about anorexia from this link.

"Sometimes a person with anorexia can accept that he/she is very thin but cannot accept how dangerous the situation really is. It is difficult for him/her to understand that a very low weight and dangerous dieting habits can actually be fatal."

Some anorexics understand they are skinny but cant accept how dangerously thin they are. However you still cannot alleviate anorexia by preforming liposuction on them since anorexia is still the intense fear of gaining weight and even if they are extremely skinny they will fear gaining weight again.



phattonez said:
You can't compare attempted suicides with successful suicides, which is the only factor that this study looks at.
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I didnt. That 40% is an attempted suicide rate and the numbers I pulled from the first study were attempted suicides. Look at table 2 again. It clearly shows the number of attempted suicides. Those are the numbers I used. So yeah the attempted suicide rate is much much lower then it was before.

phattonez said:
And yet we still have evidence of a 19x higher successful suicide rate than the general population. So again, what is the rationale for mutilating functioning organs?
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I dont know how many times I can repeat myself here. It alleviates gender dysphoria and lowers the attempted suicide rate by a considerable amount. The fact that there is a 19 times higher successful suicide rate then the general population is most likely (in my opinion) down to factors like acceptance, extra financial burdens, ect.
 
Omgitsme said:
Sigh...Anorexia Nervosa - National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders

"3. Body Image Problems

When a person with anorexia looks into a mirror he/she does not often see an accurate reflection. A person with anorexia sees him/herself as fat, even if he/she is dangerously thin. This is a very frightening experience and feels very real – driving the person to diet"

Doesnt matter if they are dangerously thin or not. They see themselves as overweight.

However I did learn something about anorexia from this link.

"Sometimes a person with anorexia can accept that he/she is very thin but cannot accept how dangerous the situation really is. It is difficult for him/her to understand that a very low weight and dangerous dieting habits can actually be fatal."

Some anorexics understand they are skinny but cant accept how dangerously thin they are. However you still cannot alleviate anorexia by preforming liposuction on them since anorexia is still the intense fear of gaining weight and even if they are extremely skinny they will fear gaining weight again.
Click to expand...

But they would be more satisfied with their body image after the liposuction, just as the transgender would feel that their gender dysphoria would be relieved.

I didnt. That 40% is an attempted suicide rate and the numbers I pulled from the first study were attempted suicides. Look at table 2 again. It clearly shows the number of attempted suicides. Those are the numbers I used. So yeah the attempted suicide rate is much much lower then it was before.
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The study I brought up was death by suicide. Is there another study?

I dont know how many times I can repeat myself here. It alleviates gender dysphoria and lowers the attempted suicide rate by a considerable amount. The fact that there is a 19 times higher successful suicide rate then the general population is most likely (in my opinion) down to factors like acceptance, extra financial burdens, ect.
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Let's see the evidence of that.
 
phattonez said:
But they would be more satisfied with their body image after the liposuction, just as the transgender would feel that their gender dysphoria would be relieved.
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What you need to be comparing are the two disorders which is anorexia and gender dysphoria. Anything else is pointless. SRS relieves gender dysphoria but liposuction doesnt do anything to help anorexia.

phattonez said:
The study I brought up was death by suicide. Is there another study?
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You should really look at that first study a bit closer. Table 2 clearly lists the number of attempted suicides as well as the number of successful suicides.

phattonez said:
Let's see the evidence of that.
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Ive already shown you my evidence multiple times and im not going to do it again. If you want to go back though my posts and then come back to me fine but for now our conversation is done.
 
phattonez said:
There is evidence of an attempted suicide rate of 33% even with strong family support. So what makes you believe that the suicide rate is due entirely to acceptance and not due to the fact that they are deluded about who they really are?
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It isn't just about family acceptance. You can have one of the most accepting families in the world, and still face other people in the world who don't accept you, discriminate against you, and so on. Plus, how is family acceptance measured? Is it the entire family or just most of it or those that the person has regular contact with or what? There are plenty of family members that have little issues accepting my trans sister, while other family members have huge problems with it. So which do you go by? The family support that is there is strong, but there are still people within the family that are not supportive.
 
Omgitsme said:
I didnt. That 40% is an attempted suicide rate and the numbers I pulled from the first study were attempted suicides. Look at table 2 again. It clearly shows the number of attempted suicides. Those are the numbers I used. So yeah the attempted suicide rate is much much lower then it was before.
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Even though I am I guess on the other side here, your logic with the data from that study seems to be more sound IMO.

I dont know how many times I can repeat myself here. It alleviates gender dysphoria and lowers the attempted suicide rate by a considerable amount.
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Wait. Nevermind. Both of you are now using the data incorrectly to push your point.
 
roguenuke said:
It isn't just about family acceptance. You can have one of the most accepting families in the world, and still face other people in the world who don't accept you, discriminate against you, and so on.
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And how is that in any way unique to trans people?

Plus, how is family acceptance measured? Is it the entire family or just most of it or those that the person has regular contact with or what?
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Again, not unique to trans folks. I know several people that deal with the exact same "acceptance from family" issues while being white-cis-scum, as the trans community so eloquently puts it.

There are plenty of family members that have little issues accepting my trans sister, while other family members have huge problems with it. So which do you go by? The family support that is there is strong, but there are still people within the family that are not supportive.
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That's just how it is. As a hypothetical, if I was in the above family group, I would fully accept my cousin/sister/brother/whatever regardless of what they want to identify themselves as. There are some major issues though when it comes to "LEGALLY" defining people as the opposite sex. It's pretty simple.
 
505 said:
Wait. Nevermind. Both of you are now using the data incorrectly to push your point.
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How so? The first study mentions that SRS is effective at lowering gender dysphoria in the conclusion and using the numbers provided from that same study the attempted suicide rate for post op transsexuals is about 8.9% plus or minus 5.5% or so (3.4%-14.4%. Not super accurate but it works to show my point) and the overall attempted suicide rate of trans people is 40%. That last number includes pre-op and pre-transtition transsexuals. It also includes post-op transsexuals which knowing they have a lower attempted suicide rate of at most 14.4% (that 8.9% with the maximum 5.5% margin of error added on to it) I would say its pretty fair to say that at least something in the transition process lowers the attempted suicide rate by a considerable amount.
 
505 said:
Again, not unique to trans folks. I know several people that deal with the exact same "acceptance from family" issues while being white-cis-scum, as the trans community so eloquently puts it.
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You know what. Trans people who judge an entire group of people for the actions of a few are in the wrong. But when you say "as the trans community so eloquently puts it" you are doing the exact same thing they are and therefor are just as wrong as they are.
 
Omgitsme said:
How so? The first study mentions that SRS is effective at lowering gender dysphoria in the conclusion and using the numbers provided from that same study the attempted suicide rate for post op transsexuals is about 8.9% plus or minus 5.5% or so (3.4%-14.4%. Not super accurate but it works to show my point) and the overall attempted suicide rate of trans people is 40%.
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Ok. Honestly I have no disagreement there. You present solid data to back up what you are saying, and don't resort to the nowadays common twisting/screwing with the numbers to make your point.

That last number includes pre-op and pre-transtition transsexuals. It also includes post-op transsexuals...
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Still agree.

which knowing they have a lower attempted suicide rate of at most 14.4%
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Here's where we start to skew.

(that 8.9% with the maximum 5.5% margin of error added on to it) I would say its pretty fair to say that at least something in the transition process lowers the attempted suicide rate by a considerable amount.
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And now we arrive at... I think your conclusion is wrong given the available data. There is nothing considerable in any of these numbers. And the sample size and method sucks anyway. They're both a half assed ****ty attempt for a study, and don't represent the real world at all.
 
Omgitsme said:
You know what. Trans people who judge an entire group of people for the actions of a few are in the wrong. But when you say "as the trans community so eloquently puts it" you are doing the exact same thing they are and therefor are just as wrong as they are.
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I agree, and 4 or 5 years ago I probably would have just flat out apologized for being so "hateful".

Nowadays, I'm so sick of being seen as the enemy because I am white and cis and male. With the BLM and trans and fems activists everywhere demonizing me and people like me, I am sick of it and I am tired of being sorry. I live my life "colorblind" and "raceblind" and "sexblind". I wish everybody else would do the same and just STFU about it, and judge people on their merits instead of their size/gender/race.
 
505 said:
I agree, and 4 or 5 years ago I probably would have just flat out apologized for being so "hateful".

Nowadays, I'm so sick of being seen as the enemy because I am white and cis and male. With the BLM and trans and fems activists everywhere demonizing me and people like me, I am sick of it and I am tired of being sorry. I live my life "colorblind" and "raceblind" and "sexblind". I wish everybody else would do the same and just STFU about it, and judge people on their merits instead of their size/gender/race.
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Only you are making yourself to be the enemy though. It is all in your head, but then you act on those thoughts, posting stupid comments and generalizations claiming whole communities all think a certain way, which leads to you getting targeted for those comments. It has zero to do with those other traits of you.
 
505 said:
And how is that in any way unique to trans people?



Again, not unique to trans folks. I know several people that deal with the exact same "acceptance from family" issues while being white-cis-scum, as the trans community so eloquently puts it.



That's just how it is. As a hypothetical, if I was in the above family group, I would fully accept my cousin/sister/brother/whatever regardless of what they want to identify themselves as. There are some major issues though when it comes to "LEGALLY" defining people as the opposite sex. It's pretty simple.
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Trans people face those things in much higher degrees, by much greater numbers of people. That is how it is different.

And please tell us the legal problems that occur with changing a persons legal sex.
 
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