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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

  • Total voters
    160
Omgitsme said:
This line is from your link in the paragraph above table 5.

"The survey did not provide information about the timing of reported suicide attempts in relation to receiving transition-related health care"

Its a lifetime suicide rate. So in other words someone who is pretransition could attempt suicide and survive then get hormones and SRS and then get counted in the "have had SRS and attempted suicide" category. In order to show that SRS is ineffective at lowering the suicide rate you would need a study that compares two groups of trans people. The first group would be trans people who have not had SRS but have started hormones and only count suicide attempts after they have started hormones. And the second group would be trans people who have started hormones and HRT and only count suicide attempts after SRS. Does that make sense at all? If not I could try and explain it better.
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Then go and do that study. Until then, what we see is that surgeries do not lower suicide rates, and hormone treatment increases suicide rates.
 
phattonez said:
Then go and do that study. Until then, what we see is that surgeries do not lower suicide rates, and hormone treatment increases suicide rates.
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Except we dont see that as I have been pointing out. No study you have produced has proven your claims. And what SRS is supposed to do is reduce or eliminate gender dysphoria and its very successful at that in most cases. So why stop doing something that is very successful?
 
Absentglare said:
You can say that all you want, repeating it doesn't make it true.
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You are 100% correct. It is not true because I say it is true... It is true because it is true.
 
Omgitsme said:
Except we dont see that as I have been pointing out. No study you have produced has proven your claims. And what SRS is supposed to do is reduce or eliminate gender dysphoria and its very successful at that in most cases. So why stop doing something that is very successful?
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Forgive me for not believing what people self-report about their happiness when their suicide rate remains at 40%.
 
phattonez said:
Forgive me for not believing what people self-report about their happiness when their suicide rate remains at 40%.
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:doh....Except it doesnt. Lets go back to the first study. Of the 324 post op transgender people they studied there was 29 attempted suicides between the years of 1973 and 2003. That brings out the attempted suicide rate of post op transgender people to about 8.9%. Its possible that if they studied those same 324 people longer that there would be a couple more attempted suicides but certainly not enough to bring it up to 40%.

Whats ridiculous is I just explained how that 40% attempted suicide rate you keep talking about was a lifetime suicide rate and I just got done explaining that what that means is that if a transgender person attempts suicide before they start transition and survive then go on hormones and get SRS and not attempt suicide again they will still be counted in the catagory of "had SRS and attempted suicide". So those numbers are not at all representative of post op transsexuals attempted suicide rate. You didnt even try and disprove that. You just keep repeating that over and over again.
 
Bodhisattva said:
You are 100% correct. It is not true because I say it is true... It is true because it is true.
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No, you are wrong, and you still do not understand the difference between sex and gender in spite of my repeated explanations.

However, please feel free to continue to play your broken record, because you cannot possibly respond intelligently to any of the points i've raised.
 
Absentglare said:
No, you are wrong, and you still do not understand the difference between sex and gender in spite of my repeated explanations.

However, please feel free to continue to play your broken record, because you cannot possibly respond intelligently to any of the points i've raised.
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I did that... you repeated falsehoods. Sorry. A man is biologically a man, period. A man can feel like he is a woman but he is still a man. End of story.

You literally have nothing other than your wishes and hopes that others will agree with you... but most won't accept lies as the premise of your reality..
 
Bodhisattva said:
I did that... you repeated falsehoods. Sorry. A man is biologically a man, period. A man can feel like he is a woman but he is still a man. End of story.

You literally have nothing other than your wishes and hopes that others will agree with you... but most won't accept lies as the premise of your reality..
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Then why is all of academia firmly seated against your dated, ignorant view?
 
Omgitsme said:
:doh....Except it doesnt. Lets go back to the first study. Of the 324 post op transgender people they studied there was 29 attempted suicides between the years of 1973 and 2003. That brings out the attempted suicide rate of post op transgender people to about 8.9%. Its possible that if they studied those same 324 people longer that there would be a couple more attempted suicides but certainly not enough to bring it up to 40%.

Whats ridiculous is I just explained how that 40% attempted suicide rate you keep talking about was a lifetime suicide rate and I just got done explaining that what that means is that if a transgender person attempts suicide before they start transition and survive then go on hormones and get SRS and not attempt suicide again they will still be counted in the catagory of "had SRS and attempted suicide". So those numbers are not at all representative of post op transsexuals attempted suicide rate. You didnt even try and disprove that. You just keep repeating that over and over again.
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So is Dr. Paul McHugh lying when he is cited in this article?

cnsnews said:
Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”
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Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ?Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ?Biologically Impossible?
 
Absentglare said:
Then why is all of academia firmly seated against your dated, ignorant view?
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Is that the same "all" that Obama touts when he says that all economists agree with him?
 
phattonez said:
So is Dr. Paul McHugh lying when he is cited in this article?



Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ?Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ?Biologically Impossible?
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This guy comes up alot in transgender discussions. Here is a link to the commentary your link is talking about.

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

And here is a quote from the link.

"A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population."

That study he is talking about is this one.

Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. - PubMed - NCBI

That study should look familiar because its the exact study you posted earlier. The first one. He is making the exact same argument you were using earlier and I have already went over why thats wrong. Please actually do a little bit of digging before posting links.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Henrin said:
If you define gender as someone that takes hormones and got surgery then you're defining it in a stupid way.
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Oh my god, how to cut straight to the issue... I know there's like 1000 posts already, but ya, this sums it up.
 
Omgitsme said:
This guy comes up alot in transgender discussions. Here is a link to the commentary your link is talking about.

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

And here is a quote from the link.

"A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population."

That study he is talking about is this one.

Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. - PubMed - NCBI

That study should look familiar because its the exact study you posted earlier. The first one. He is making the exact same argument you were using earlier and I have already went over why thats wrong. Please actually do a little bit of digging before posting links.
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So you aren't at all curious why the suicide rate remains so shockingly high? How is this surgery in any way effective? What is the justification for mutilating a healthy body?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

CLAX1911 said:
Law shouldn't recognize gender. What would be the point.
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So we can stop women from showing their nipples in public and subconciously prove males still make most of the important decisions in a token trophy accomplishment of morality and domination.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

dirtpoorchris said:
So we can stop women from showing their nipples in public and subconciously prove males still make most of the important decisions in a token trophy accomplishment of morality and domination.
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Still doesn't need to be legal recognition of sex.
 
phattonez said:
So you aren't at all curious why the suicide rate remains so shockingly high? How is this surgery in any way effective? What is the justification for mutilating a healthy body?
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Did you even read anything I have been posting?
 
Omgitsme said:
Did you even read anything I have been posting?
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I have, but it's unconvincing. The treatment leaves the population with a suicide risk 19x higher than that of the general population. Where is the evidence of the effectiveness?
 
phattonez said:
I have, but it's unconvincing. The treatment leaves the population with a suicide risk 19x higher than that of the general population. Where is the evidence of the effectiveness?
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19 times higher is still much much lower then it was. And the first study even mentions that its effective at treating dysphoria. Now about your first claim that the suicide rate is the pre op as it is post op. Do you see why that statement is false now?
 
Omgitsme said:
19 times higher is still much much lower then it was. And the first study even mentions that its effective at treating dysphoria. Now about your first claim that the suicide rate is the pre op as it is post op. Do you see why that statement is false now?
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How is a 19x higher suicide rate in any way indicative of a successful treatment? Does that sound in any way like you're justified in amputating healthy functioning organs?
 
phattonez said:
How is a 19x higher suicide rate in any way indicative of a successful treatment? Does that sound in any way like you're justified in amputating healthy functioning organs?
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Being lower than preop rates indicates that there is something else causing the issues with postop transgendered people, possibly the lack of accepting by family, friends, coworkers, etc or not getting proper follow up therapy, especially since the time periods we are looking at would suggest that the study was done on transsexuals who had the surgery at least 15/20 years ago, which would be prior to most if any countries having same sex marriage legal and still low numbers in acceptance of homosexuality, and therefore low acceptance of transgender ism.

Transgendered people are going to need support, especially since no matter their sexuality, they are going to be severely limited in their choices for partners, given that there will be people of every other sexuality who find it difficult to date, be with a transsexual, transgender person.
 
roguenuke said:
Being lower than preop rates indicates that there is something else causing the issues with postop transgendered people, possibly the lack of accepting by family, friends, coworkers, etc or not getting proper follow up therapy, especially since the time periods we are looking at would suggest that the study was done on transsexuals who had the surgery at least 15/20 years ago, which would be prior to most if any countries having same sex marriage legal and still low numbers in acceptance of homosexuality, and therefore low acceptance of transgender ism.

Transgendered people are going to need support, especially since no matter their sexuality, they are going to be severely limited in their choices for partners, given that there will be people of every other sexuality who find it difficult to date, be with a transsexual, transgender person.
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See table 17.

http://clementicenter.rutgers.edu/w...nsgender-and-Gender-Non-Conforming-Adults.pdf

Even with a strong family the suicide rate remains at 33%. This is more than an acceptance issue.
 
phattonez said:
Is that the same "all" that Obama touts when he says that all economists agree with him?
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No, look up anything academic on gender, dude.

phattonez said:
How is a 19x higher suicide rate in any way indicative of a successful treatment? Does that sound in any way like you're justified in amputating healthy functioning organs?
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What do you not get?

Do you hear all the bigotry in this thread?
 
phattonez said:
How is a 19x higher suicide rate in any way indicative of a successful treatment? Does that sound in any way like you're justified in amputating healthy functioning organs?
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First of all that same study you got that information from says that it is successful at alleviating gender dysphoria. And to answer your question do you remember how I said that if you do the math the attempted suicide rate in the first study for post op transsexuals was 8.9%? That is much much lower then the 40% attempted suicide rate for transsexuals in every stage of transition (including before transition). So yeah either hormones or SRS or both are reducing the suicide rate by an incredible amount. And if we want to keep lowering the attempted suicide rate then the first study you posted suggests that we improve psychiatric and somatic care after SRS. And in my own personal opinion we could bring that number down even more by being a more trans friendly culture.
 
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