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Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

  • Total voters
    160
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

Kreton said:
Was this ever answered?
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I dunno. I lost track of this thread two weeks ago.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

maquiscat said:
That which is "obvious" is not always true. For a long time it was obvious that the sun circled the earth. Of course, falsely defining the problem is also a hindrance. The problem is not that the mind/self is wrong. The problem is not that the body is wrong. The problem is that they are mismatched. Currently, the better solution is to alter the body to match the self. Do you have any links to therapy to alter the self to match the body that isn't akin to homosexuality conversion therapy?
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Should we allow anorexics to have their body match their mindset?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

phattonez said:
Should we allow anorexics to have their body match their mindset?
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Do you mean legally allow them to as opposed to legally forcing them into procedures they do not want?
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

phattonez said:
Should we allow anorexics to have their body match their mindset?
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I've been studying for my exams too much. I missed my own context of the line. Currently we have methods and techniques that would not cause any mental trauma to bring the mind in line with the body. That said, yes the anorexic should have the legal choice of whether to bring the body in line with the self or the self in line with the body.

Ideally a transgender should also have such a choice as to which is brought in line with the other. However, we do not currently have, to my knowledge, a method that is not akin to homosexual conversion therapy in the harm it does to the individual. As I asked before, provide links if we do. I am ready to admit if I missed such coming into being.

Now personally I hope that such a method of brining the self in line with the body come into existence. I believe that the TG should be able choose which way they go. But until that happens, then we use the least harmful option of reconciling the two, which is the SRS
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

maquiscat said:
Do you mean legally allow them to as opposed to legally forcing them into procedures they do not want?
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I mean should we allow starving themselves to be approved therapy so that their body matches their thoughts.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

maquiscat said:
I've been studying for my exams too much. I missed my own context of the line. Currently we have methods and techniques that would not cause any mental trauma to bring the mind in line with the body. That said, yes the anorexic should have the legal choice of whether to bring the body in line with the self or the self in line with the body.
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I have big issues with this, and I assume most would here also. In the end you're not curing the disease, you're just appeasing it, and doing more harm than good in the process.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

phattonez said:
I have big issues with this, and I assume most would here also. In the end you're not curing the disease, you're just appeasing it, and doing more harm than good in the process.
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So you would rather have the kind of harm that the homosexual conversion therapy causes? I've asked you several times if you can show me where there is any therapy out there that can bring the self in line with the body without that kind of damage.
 
As a post-op trans woman, 3.5 years on hormones and advocate for this population, it saddens but does not surprise me to see uninformed comments.

The NCAA looked at the issue of sports and found there was no physical difference if on hormones. We lose about half of our upper body and lower body strength but still have to haul around the skeletal structure of a guy. There is no advantage if on hormones. How many transwomen do you see in Division I basketball? As I recall at least a year of hormone suppression is required to play NCAA ball.

The last thing I care about is sports. This is a legitimate Title IX issue, but I would like anti-discrimination ordinances. We are generally overeducated, twice as likely as the general population to have graduate degrees, but twice as likely to be unemployed. I know many transwoman who have lost highly paid jobs after coming out. Transphobia hits the poor and transwomen of color hardest of all.

Violence: 72% of the hate crime homicides against the entire LGBT population have been against transwomen, most of those transwomen of color. Some of the attitudes I've seen in this over long thread on what really is not an issue to any mainstream organization like WPATH, APA or AMA perpetuate this violence.

Fear is mongered. Jocks are going to pretend to be trans (and get 3 months of counseling, have hormones which make them potentially impotent) just to get a peak inside of a women's bathroom?

Meanwhile, we desperately just want to pee in peace. When I was preop, I feared going either to the men's or the women's bathroom. I was 24/7 female but dared not do so in Oklahoma. Even post op and with an F on my driver's license, it is a scary proposition.

I see in this thread we have been called mentally ill although not with sympathy. There is hate in the words which seems to know deep down that we are not mentally ill - we are simply different. There was a reason Magnus Hirschfeld's life work was piled on the 5/10/33 Berlin book burning. We are feared.

I get all of this. I see it every day in Oklahoma. What I do not get is how a board devoted to debating can have so many posters who make harsh judgments without first putting in the hard effort to understand. Have any of those who think this is an illness actually talked to a transwoman? The clinicians who diagnose them do on a professional basis. They come to the same conclusion as did Harry Benjamin and Magnus Hirschfeld and every serious scientific body which has addressed the issue. Gender Dysphoria is real.

I agree the question is imprecise. Legal rights are varied and cannot be generalized. The law has taken trans rights on an issue by issue basis and I am willing to discuss any issue from the tax deductibility of reassignment surgery to the decision last year to allow transition benefits in Medicare. What is horrible, though, is the underlying and unthinking premise of many posters who have no clue.

A study last year found that only 8% of Americans know someone who is transgender. We seem to be everywhere but we aren't. Take some time and get to know us, please, before trotting out hateful stereotypes which have been debunked.

To those who have been kind in this thread, greetings and thank you.
 
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AlyssaD said:
I see in this thread we have been called mentally ill although not with sympathy. There is hate in the words which seems to know deep down that we are not mentally ill - we are simply different.
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As a matter of objective, undeniable, biological and scientific fact, you are, and will always be, male, not female. All the politically-correct crap that has been built around your condition does not change the solid truth. You are male, and to think that you are or can become female is delusional, perverse, and insane.

And you have no legitimate business going into women's dressing rooms, locker rooms, restrooms, or similar facilities.

You are not any more female than this guy is a lizard.

1214040_orig.jpg
 
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Bob Blaylock said:
As a matter of objective, undeniable, biological and scientific fact, you are, and will always be, male, not female. All the politically-correct crap that has been built around your condition does not change the solid truth. You are male, and to think that you are or can become female is delusional, perverse, and insane.

And you have no legitimate business going into women's dressing rooms, locker rooms, restrooms, or similar facilities.

You are not any more female than this guy is a lizard.
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If you want to make an actual argument, I will reply. Nothing about this topic is axiomatic so you must actually use logic and evidence, not merely make pronouncements from on high.

Your post, however, is designed to stop discussion because your mind is closed. You provoke because you do not want information. Here I am, the target of your hate, willing to have an open discussion but you want to shut it down. Why?

I hope I never lose my intellectual curiosity. So sad.

Since what you posted is not worth the effort of an extensive reply, I will cut and paste an easy response to your unsupported comparison of my nature to someone thinking they are a lizard. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-gender-confirmation-surgery_b_4384701.html

11. "I'm actually a feline trapped in a human's body. Can I get can surgery to make me a cat?"

Also known as the "I think I'm funny, but I'm not," answer. Generally used by guys who watch South Park.

When people use this argument, they assume that transgender people are mentally ill (they're not), assume it's a delusion that can be cured (wrong), and ignores one key fact. People can naturally be mentally hard wired to identify as male or female. Sometimes the wiring and the equipment don't synch up during development. We have 40-plus years of neuroscience research basically telling us gender identity and body image are written early on in development, and sometimes they don't match.

People, however, do not naturally identify as a cat, or other non-human animal.
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This isn't the best argument I could make but, thus far, you've not made any arguments. You have merely presented bald assertions designed for maximum insult. Try to have an original thought, please?
 
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AlyssaD said:
If you want to make an actual argument, I will reply. Nothing about this topic is axiomatic so you must actually use logic and evidence, not merely make pronouncements from on high.

Your post, however, is designed to stop discussion because your mind is closed. You provoke because you do not want information. Here I am, the target of your hate, willing to have an open discussion but you want to shut it down. Why?
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No “hate”; just plain, obvious, common sense and common science.

If you were born male, then you are male. Period. You cannot become female by having your genitals surgically-mutilated, and you cannot become female by having your hormones tinkered with artificially. At most, you can become a eunuch; nothing more. To think that you are or can become female is just delusional insanity, no different than that of the man who thinks he can become a reptile by being surgically altered to superficially resemble a reptile. Underneath the bizarre and grotesque surgical mutilations, both you and the gentleman pictured in my last post are men, not lizards, and not women.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
No “hate”; just plain, obvious, common sense and common science.

If you were born male, then you are male. Period. You cannot become female by having your genitals surgically-mutilated, and you cannot become female by having your hormones tinkered with artificially. At most, you can become a eunuch; nothing more. To think that you are or can become female is just delusional insanity, no different than that of the man who thinks he can become a reptile by being surgically altered to superficially resemble a reptile. Underneath the bizarre and grotesque surgical mutilations, both you and the gentleman pictured in my last post are men, not lizards, and not women.
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part of me being a libertarian is allowing someone else to determine what they consider themselves to be
 
TurtleDude said:
part of me being a libertarian is allowing someone else to determine what they consider themselves to be
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To compel government and/or sane individuals to play along with the delusions of one who is insane would not seem to me to be at all in line with libertarian principles. A guy can get his dick cut off, and claim to be a gal, but that doesn't mean that I have any obligation to recognize or treat him as anything other than a sick, crazy guy who had his dick cut off; and it most certainly does not mean that women are obligated to share their dressing facilities with him.
 
AlyssaD said:
As a post-op trans woman, 3.5 years on hormones and advocate for this population, it saddens but does not surprise me to see uninformed comments.
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Welcome aboard.

The last thing I care about is sports.
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Shocking. Not at all surprising though that the "new face of diversity/acceptance" these days is completely unable to put themselves in anybody else shoes.

This is a legitimate Title IX issue, but I would like anti-discrimination ordinances. We are generally overeducated, twice as likely as the general population to have graduate degrees, but twice as likely to be unemployed. I know many transwoman who have lost highly paid jobs after coming out. Transphobia hits the poor and transwomen of color hardest of all.
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Hahahaha. You want anti-makes-me-feel-bad ordinances. And you'll never get them, so toughen up special snowflake... the world is tough outside of tumblr.

Violence: 72% of the hate crime homicides against the entire LGBT population have been against transwomen, most of those transwomen of color. Some of the attitudes I've seen in this over long thread on what really is not an issue to any mainstream organization like WPATH, APA or AMA perpetuate this violence.

Fear is mongered. Jocks are going to pretend to be trans (and get 3 months of counseling, have hormones which make them potentially impotent) just to get a peak inside of a women's bathroom?
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No. Freaks like this were never "jocks" and are just nutjobs... poor betas that probably are f'd enough in the head to just want a peak at something they can never have:

pf.png


Meanwhile, we desperately just want to pee in peace. When I was preop, I feared going either to the men's or the women's bathroom. I was 24/7 female but dared not do so in Oklahoma. Even post op and with an F on my driver's license, it is a scary proposition.
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Yeah it's a scary world out there. Did you ever stop and think it's not all about YOU?

I see in this thread we have been called mentally ill although not with sympathy. There is hate in the words which seems to know deep down that we are not mentally ill - we are simply different. There was a reason Magnus Hirschfeld's life work was piled on the 5/10/33 Berlin book burning. We are feared.
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Oh bull****. You aren't feared. You aren't just different. You aren't oppressed. You want those to be those things because it's easier than dealing with reality.

I get all of this. I see it every day in Oklahoma. What I do not get is how a board devoted to debating can have so many posters who make harsh judgments without first putting in the hard effort to understand. Have any of those who think this is an illness actually talked to a transwoman? The clinicians who diagnose them do on a professional basis. They come to the same conclusion as did Harry Benjamin and Magnus Hirschfeld and every serious scientific body which has addressed the issue. Gender Dysphoria is real.
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It's the flavor of the week. People who want to get their name out there push this crap. You are a man, and will never be a woman. Sorry.

I agree the question is imprecise. Legal rights are varied and cannot be generalized. The law has taken trans rights on an issue by issue basis and I am willing to discuss any issue from the tax deductibility of reassignment surgery to the decision last year to allow transition benefits in Medicare. What is horrible, though, is the underlying and unthinking premise of many posters who have no clue.
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We have a clue. There are a lot of smart people here, and the smart people know that you can't just change genders because YOU feel like some special snowflake that was born different and left behind because of the unfair world. Seek help.

A study last year found that only 8% of Americans know someone who is transgender. We seem to be everywhere but we aren't. Take some time and get to know us, please, before trotting out hateful stereotypes which have been debunked.
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Disagreeing with you is not some hateful stereotypical harassment. Save that **** for tumblr. It is what it is... a disagreement. I would treat you just like everybody else in person. Most people don't give a **** that you want to call yourself a woman or a wizard or a dragon... we just don't give a **** and wish you'd all just stop pushing the narrative of how oppressed you are.
 
TurtleDude said:
part of me being a libertarian is allowing someone else to determine what they consider themselves to be
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Who cares what they consider themselves to be? They don't need permission to think of themselves as a woman, a lizard, a lion, a bird, or anything else for that matter.
 
Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

cpwill said:
Don't forget drivers insurance. I could have saved a bunch of money as a teen by suddenly discovering that I was a girl.
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In fifteen minutes or less?
 
Henrin said:
Who cares what they consider themselves to be? They don't need permission to think of themselves as a woman, a lizard, a lion, a bird, or anything else for that matter.
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I always worry about people who are so concerned to designate others differently than others designate themselves Trans-people don't hurt you at all. Your hostility seems rather excessive. You sound like you picked someone up at a bar and found out later they were a man. `
 
You are free to pretend you are a woman if you want. I will not stop you. But i will not go along with your pretending. Sorry. I was raised not to tell lies, not even trivial ones for comfort. And if I catch you in the same bathroom as my future daughter I will treat you as a perverted man. Sorry you werent born as a girl. Its not my fault.

Im sorry that I dont think you are a pretty little lady and want to breed with you. But you dont need to try to make me feel guilty. Life is hard.
 
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TurtleDude said:
I always worry about people who are so concerned to designate others differently than others designate themselves Trans-people don't hurt you at all. Your hostility seems rather excessive. You sound like you picked someone up at a bar and found out later they were a man. `
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What hostility?
 
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dirtpoorchris said:
You are free to pretend you are a woman if you want. I will not stop you. But i will not go along with your pretending. Sorry. I was raised not to tell lies, not even trivial ones for comfort. And if I catch you in the same bathroom as my future daughter I will treat you as a perverted man. Sorry you werent born as a girl. Its not my fault.
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Same here. I was taught to be honest and never tell a lie, so when a group of people demand that I go along with their lies I have to decline. It's not because I'm asshole that I decline, but because I will not lie for anyone.
 
Didn't read the question properly. If a person has taken the steps to become a woman, they should be treated as a woman. However, if it's pre-op, then they should using facilities and laws relevant to their existing physical parts.
 
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dirtpoorchris said:
And if I catch you in the same bathroom as my future daughter I will treat you as a perverted man.
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I so love when people make this empty threat. What are you going to do? Package check someone who you feels looks too masculine to be female? You really want to risk RSO status, especially if you end up wrong? And will you hold that same standard for your future son? Treat the person going into the bathroom with him as a perverted woman who isn't trying to pee but instead sexually assault your boy?
 
maquiscat said:
I so love when people make this empty threat. What are you going to do? Package check someone who you feels looks too masculine to be female? You really want to risk RSO status, especially if you end up wrong? And will you hold that same standard for your future son? Treat the person going into the bathroom with him as a perverted woman who isn't trying to pee but instead sexually assault your boy?
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Of course id handle it the same for a son. And where did I threaten anything? Why do you demonize people who dont agree with you. I meet lots of perverted people and I never threaten them. I never mentioned sexual assualt. THAT i would kill for. Now that is a threat.
 
TurtleDude said:
I always worry about people who are so concerned to designate others differently than others designate themselves Trans-people don't hurt you at all. Your hostility seems rather excessive. You sound like you picked someone up at a bar and found out later they were a man. `
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He may be secretly be Tucker Case.
 
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