View Poll Results: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

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Thread: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

  1. #441
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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Also, for POS or something: Poverty Facts and Stats

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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    guy you know we were talking about the power of force by the type of system you are proposing....which is all we have talked about..... i have never talked about a system other then what you are proposing.

    this shows either two things, you don't know what you are even discussing, or you screwed up and are trying to cover your mistake.
    You're talking about something that has never existed, or you're talking about something like the USSR, I truly fail to follow you.

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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Why would they care less? You're making assumptions, oh yes, I also know a philosopher.
    Karl Marx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes, the difference is that what Aristotle said was based on evidence that individually owned property was better maintained and more productive than collectively owned property that is largely unproductive, unmaintained, and generally short lived. All you have to do is look at the disasters such as the dust bowl and deforestation to prove the point.

  4. #444
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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yes, the difference is that what Aristotle said was based on evidence that individually owned property was better maintained and more productive than collectively owned property that is largely unproductive, unmaintained, and generally short lived. All you have to do is look at the disasters such as the dust bowl and deforestation to prove the point.
    Deforestation? The dust bowl? Explain how these were caused by workers owning the means of production, and I urge you to name me a socialist state where the workers actually own the production. What are you getting your evidence off of? Forced collectivization under Mao/stalin, which involves a state? Marx has no evidence for anything he says? 10/10

  5. #445
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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    The system can work without 100% compliance, you're referring to stalin's method.
    no, it can't.... the system falls immediately apart without total compliance.

    I have no doubt that this stateless, classless ,moneyless society evolves into unregulated capitalism in very short order...

    Stalins method, or one similar in authoritativeness, is how Communism, on a wide scale, comes into being in the real world... it can't happen otherwise.

    that's another great thing about capitalism.... communists are free to operate in a capitalist system... the inverse is not true.

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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Deforestation? The dust bowl? Explain how these were caused by workers owning the means of production, and I urge you to name me a socialist state where the workers actually own the production. What are you getting your evidence off of? Forced collectivization under Mao/stalin, which involves a state?
    What I'm getting is that there is no evidence that collectively owned property is superior than individually owned property. If you want productive well maintained property the one thing you don't want to do is to allow the collective to own it. The fact of the matter is that societies built on collective ownership will never be as prosperous as societies built on individual ownership.

  7. #447
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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    communism is built on force, not liberty
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    It hasn't been built yet, and if needs to be done by force, I can understand why.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    thanks for confirming that, and i am sure your force also means killing people it need be...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    I suppose, although I highly doubt it will come to that, in regards to using armed force.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    oh, do you think that if anyone got in the way of you idea, you are not going to be for killing them?
    i suppose?......NO you would, which is why you type of world will always fail, because worlds built of force do not last, they can created, but they always destroy themselves in the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Sounds like what capitalists have done before, pointing out state socialism doesn't help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    what governments have done before......governments are the biggest violators of rights and killers of the people.
    you advocate for a government which has total control of the people.......to violate and kill more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    You've never heard of capitalist dictators? Not a surprise. Also, do you want to abolish the state aswell? Wait, communism has no state, what government?
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    if communism has no state, then how are the people secure?
    how does communism "enforce itself" if it has no state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    There is nothing to enforce, it is a stateless society with collective ownership of production, things like farms, factories, lakes.. You seem to like guns alot, as do I, have quite a few myself, people would be able to "enforce" the idea of not killing others, stealing other's PROPERTY, apart from the means of production.. Again, communism is when the workers, the people, live in a society without any state leadership.
    .......

  8. #448
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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    no, it can't.... the system falls immediately apart without total compliance.

    I have no doubt that this stateless, classless ,moneyless society evolves into unregulated capitalism in very short order...

    Stalins method, or one similar in authoritativeness, is how Communism, on a wide scale, comes into being in the real world... it can't happen otherwise.

    that's another great thing about capitalism.... communists are free to operate in a capitalist system... the inverse is not true.
    You keep making assumptions, much like Henrin, despite the fact that he follows anarcho capitalism, which has never existed. Really now? More baseless bull****? Stalins method isn't the way to do it, you make more assumptions.

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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    .......
    I don't see what you're talking about.

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    Re: Do the wealthy have too much power in the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Bull**** on the producers position, you know that. Evidence?
    It's simple supply and demand theory. If the producers charge too high people won't buy, if their price of input is too low the domestic population will not expand profit for the company. The only way a firm can actually pay less on Input of production is either by new technology which is a good thing for the global economy, or create trade protectionist policy through government to expand export sectors. This is what is happening in china right now, the domestic population can not afford most of the products because china has huge export subsidies and the central gov. Devalues the yuan to such levels most of the Chinese population live in tremendous real world poverty. This is a direct cause of the central planning of the economy, not free marketism.

    However, fords quote is a direct relation to any healthy sustainable free market society. Any economist would agree the idea that paying domestic and focusing a majority of production on domestic stability is a much more stable long term growth, however in infant stages of a nation you can argue for trade policy to in a sense shock the economy to a massive growth, after that you need to stabilize that growth by advancing your domestic infrastructure and the most efficient and stable way to do so is through the free market

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