View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #1
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    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 04-07-15 at 01:05 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

    The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.
    TANSTAAFL

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.
    In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    The poll is doesnt work its horrible but that aside I dont think your premise is true.
    Maybe I missed them but i dont recall see one single person claim "ANY" discrimination is bad

    What I have seen are the majority of people against ILLEGAL discrimaintion and or violating peoples equal/civil rights.

    Lets now go through your examples for clarification.
    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.? Adolph Hitler is not a race, gender, religion etc.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK KKK is not a race, gender, religion etc. BUT I will say I don believe there are some cases on the books where they claimed it fit a religion though those cases maybe old.
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets Pro-life is not a race, gender, religion etc.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding Gay is a sexual orientation and it would be illegal discrimination. Since the word "sex" is often mentioned instead of gender I wouldnt be surprised if that addition is made soon and it national. Meaning that sexual orientation and gender are covered under sex.
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    The poll is doesnt work its horrible but that aside I dont think your premise is true.
    Maybe I missed them but i dont recall see one single person claim "ANY" discrimination is bad

    What I have seen are the majority of people against ILLEGAL discrimaintion and or violating peoples equal/civil rights.

    Lets now go through your examples for clarification.
    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.? Adolph Hitler is not a race, gender, religion etc.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK KKK is not a race, gender, religion etc. BUT I will say I don believe there are some cases on the books where they claimed it fit a religion though those cases maybe old.
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets Pro-life is not a race, gender, religion etc.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding Gay is a sexual orientation and it would be illegal discrimination. Since the word "sex" is often mentioned instead of gender I wouldnt be surprised if that addition is made soon and it national. Meaning that sexual orientation and gender are covered under sex.
    If you are going to look at it from a legal standpoint, then it depends on the local/state laws that apply, and those vary widely. For example, in Illinois, it is illegal for a public accommodation to discriminate based on "Racial, Gender, Color, Religion, National Origin, Ancestry, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Military Status, Age, Unfavorable Military Discharge and Retaliation for opposing any of the above categories". In Indiana, the following: "race, color, national origin, ancestry, religion, sex, familial status (having children under 18) and disablility(sic)". For Georgia I can only find the law pertaining to disabilities, though that could be because it is late and I am tired. South Carolina: " race, color, religion, or national origin". It should be obvious from these that it varies quite a bit from state to state. None of those would cover the first 4 examples in the poll, precisely because they are different types of situations from the last.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    Vote Fridge in 2020, because America needs to seriously chill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #7
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih [sic] or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    The only one where I did not vote was the black hardware store owner selling lumber and gas cans to the KKK. This is different from all the other situations, inasmuch as it simply presumes someone walking in off the street into a store, and buying generic merchandise that the store has in stock for sale. The store owner wouldn't even have reason to know or care what the affiliation is of the customer, nor what he intended to do with the items he was purchasing. Barring any clear evidence to the contrary, the store owner should just presume that the customer wants to build something with that lumber, and the gas cans to carry gasoline to be used as fuel for vehicles or equipment.

    In every other case, we are talking about a merchant being asked to provide goods or services that are specifically in support of something that that merchant opposes. I do not believe it is ever justifiable to use the force of law to compel this of anyone.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 04-07-15 at 04:33 AM. Reason: May Laurence Tureaud have compassion on them. — http://tinyurl.com/Laurence0Tureaud
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.
    Businesses are owned by people. People have brains, and most people have consciences.

    I have a big problem with forcing anyone to do anything that is against his conscience, and this includes compelling him to allow his property (including any business in which he may have an ownership) to do so.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

    The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.
    Actually the Bill of Rights (specifically the First Amendment) very strongly supports your position. It is not rationally possible to reconcile the abuse of the power of government to force anyone to violate his conscience and to engage in any business that he does not want to engage in; with the freedoms of expression, religion, and association that are upheld by the First Amendment. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments reinforce the property rights that are relevant to this issue, with regard to the right to be secure in one's property, to not be deprived of property or liberty without due process of law, and to not have one's property taken for public use without just compensation. Remember that a business is the property of its owners; and its owners have the same rights with regard thereto as with any other property.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  10. #10
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If you are going to look at it from a legal standpoint, then it depends on the local/state laws that apply, and those vary widely. For example, in Illinois, it is illegal for a public accommodation to discriminate based on "Racial, Gender, Color, Religion, National Origin, Ancestry, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Military Status, Age, Unfavorable Military Discharge and Retaliation for opposing any of the above categories". In Indiana, the following: "race, color, national origin, ancestry, religion, sex, familial status (having children under 18) and disablility(sic)". For Georgia I can only find the law pertaining to disabilities, though that could be because it is late and I am tired. South Carolina: " race, color, religion, or national origin". It should be obvious from these that it varies quite a bit from state to state. None of those would cover the first 4 examples in the poll, precisely because they are different types of situations from the last.
    You are 100% correct, For sexual orientation it does vary greatly and in some areas its not included in the list at all. This is way I sated that IMO that addition would be made national soon. Sorry that's my mistake, I should have been more clear with that example. The way I wrote it kinda didnt make sense, saying I think it will be national soon but not discussing why or stating that it currently isnt was incomplete. Thanks.
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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