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Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?


  • Total voters
    19
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.

Joining a group or signing a contract is no more "an intrinsic part of a person's identity" in the one or the other case. So if I may refuse participation in the pagan rite for reasons of conscience in the one case why not in the other? I do not see your argument. As a matter of fact, by your logic it might even be worse to refuse the KKK pair your assistance, as you would not even be acting on religious conscience but personal dislike. ;)
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.

Me too. I would allow refusals on all the other possibilities.

I would quickly allow a refusal on the black owner / KKK kustomer example as well if the klansmen directly told the owner that the gas can and lumber was for as cross burning "ceremony", or if he showed up in a KKK t-shirt or kustomized kkk "regalia".

But... a KKK member or a gay simply wanting to buy lumber or cake mix and not telling the owner what it is for? I would say the business is obligated to serve them unless they can show a negative business impact. Maybe, KKK customer later boasted on his Face Book page where he bought the stuff from, and what he used it for.

I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment."

Unoffically, I think that is how refusals have been discretely handled for a long time. Either that or:

Customer: "Hey Soul Food owner, I want you to cater my rollicking red neck party (we love ribs). You are going to love the "Bow Hunt'in 'BO game we have planned"
Soul Food Owner: Wow, I"ll call you back some time later....
Customer: Hey, you never called back
Soul Food Owner: Guess I forgot- probably make me pretty unreliable huh?
 
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Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.

Here's the problem I have with the poll, you list along with gays, Hitler and the KKK. Being gay harms NO ONE.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience.

Indeed. It is well known that once you decide to engage in business, you give up all of your Constitutional protections. That's why if you run (for example) a small business out of your home office the police can conduct what would otherwise be illegal search and seizures, and you can be forced to quarter troops in it, and if you are an employee of a business, you have no complaint against the NSA tapping your phone (after all, you are engaged in business, are you not?).



Oh. Wait.... It turns out that in fact, legally, businesses are indeed people, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly and recently reinforced this doctrine.



Seriously. The argument that "No no no, small business owners aren't people, so it's okay if we trample their rights" argument is one of the weaker items I've seen brought to bear. You'd be better off shifting to the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is secretly racist" argument.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

How about a real example where a hooker decides she doesn't want to do black people.

It doesn't get more personal or discriminatory than that.

Hm. Now that would be an interesting conundrum to put them in. A good poll question, methinks.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Joining a group or signing a contract is no more "an intrinsic part of a person's identity" in the one or the other case. So if I may refuse participation in the pagan rite for reasons of conscience in the one case why not in the other? I do not see your argument. As a matter of fact, by your logic it might even be worse to refuse the KKK pair your assistance, as you would not even be acting on religious conscience but personal dislike. ;)

You're right. You don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm not confused about the issue of asking a business for a specialized product, but whether there's any difference between discriminating against an individual or an organization that represents that individual.

Organizations and individuals have different rights. They also conduct business differently. An organization doesn't go into a shop to buy something. A person does.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

You're right. You don't understand what I'm saying.
.....

Ahh! That is the problem. You don't worry about the meaning of words like where you refer to my saying that I "do not see your argument" by assuming I had said that I did not "understand" what you said. That is a fun game children like to play. But usually they boar of it by the time they can read.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Actually the Bill of Rights (specifically the First Amendment) very strongly supports your position. It is not rationally possible to reconcile the abuse of the power of government to force anyone to violate his conscience and to engage in any business that he does not want to engage in; with the freedoms of expression, religion, and association that are upheld by the First Amendment. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments reinforce the property rights that are relevant to this issue, with regard to the right to be secure in one's property, to not be deprived of property or liberty without due process of law, and to not have one's property taken for public use without just compensation. Remember that a business is the property of its owners; and its owners have the same rights with regard thereto as with any other property.

Thank you for correcting me. You are right, of course. The Bill of Rights does protect the individual from such encroachment from the government.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Indeed. It is well known that once you decide to engage in business, you give up all of your Constitutional protections. That's why if you run (for example) a small business out of your home office the police can conduct what would otherwise be illegal search and seizures, and you can be forced to quarter troops in it, and if you are an employee of a business, you have no complaint against the NSA tapping your phone (after all, you are engaged in business, are you not?).



Oh. Wait.... It turns out that in fact, legally, businesses are indeed people, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly and recently reinforced this doctrine.



Seriously. The argument that "No no no, small business owners aren't people, so it's okay if we trample their rights" argument is one of the weaker items I've seen brought to bear. You'd be better off shifting to the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is secretly racist" argument.

You probably should have read your links. In the first link, Justice Alito refers to it as "a legal fiction". That fiction only applies to certain types of businesses, and nowhere in the two rulings referenced does it say that businesses have a conscience. In fact, your links fail altogether to counter what I pointed out, which is essentially, words have meanings. A business does not have a conscience. It's owner does. This might legally allow them exception to certain laws, but not others. Would you care to try again, with less fail?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Hm. Now that would be an interesting conundrum to put them in. A good poll question, methinks.

Right, we should dream up hypotheticals all day long with which to pigeon hole people with, or play gotcha. People can and do refuse to do business on stated reasons other than the real reasons, all the time. That can never be eliminated all together.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

That sort of defeats the purpose of discriminating doesn't it? Lying about your reasons simply denies you of the money for the sale without the satisfaction of insulting the customer because of his race or lifestyle. Without the "statement" the business simple loses money which is why this hasn't and won't work as a solution.

You assume that the business owner wants to insult anyone or is seeking some kind of satisfaction. Why do you think that they feel this way?? If there some part of you that empathizes with this kind of thing??
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.

Being unwilling to participate in and support that which one knows to be immoral is not the same thing as “attacking” someone else who engages in that immorality. One certainly has more rights and authority regarding one's own conscience, and how one will act in accordance with it, than one has over someone else's conscience.


And, as an aside, why should someone who chooses to make blatant immorality part of his identity not expect to be “attacked” for it?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Thank you for correcting me. You are right, of course. The Bill of Rights does protect the individual from such encroachment from the government.

At least that is its intent.

Unfortunately, it doesn't do much good when government chooses to openly disregard it, and those who make that choice are not held properly accountable for their malfeasance. In my opinion, the greatest weakness in the Constitution is that it lacks “teeth”, such that corrupt public servants feel free to disregard it with impunity when they have an agenda that cannot be reconciled therewith.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.



As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.

Let us say a business will not discriminate against gay people, just gay weddings. So a gay man walks into the bakery, they have no problem filling his order for a birthday cake. A straight person walks in and asks the bakery to make a cake she is bringing as a gift to her gay friend's wedding. The bakery refuses, stating it is against their religious beliefs.

Since the bakery is not discriminating on the basis of the customer, would you find this acceptable?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Let us say a business will not discriminate against gay people, just gay weddings. So a gay man walks into the bakery, they have no problem filling his order for a birthday cake. A straight person walks in and asks the bakery to make a cake she is bringing as a gift to her gay friend's wedding. The bakery refuses, stating it is against their religious beliefs.

Since the bakery is not discriminating on the basis of the customer, would you find this acceptable?

There is no such thing as a gay wedding. There is just a wedding, and if your problem is based on the genders of the people getting married, then you are discriminating based on identity.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

You assume that the business owner wants to insult anyone or is seeking some kind of satisfaction. Why do you think that they feel this way?? If there some part of you that empathizes with this kind of thing??

Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

A person doesn't have to be actively working against a class of people to decline to do business with them. And, maybe unlike you, some people might not place earning money to a higher regard than their personal convictions.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

A person doesn't have to be actively working against a class of people to decline to do business with them. And, maybe unlike you, some people might not place earning money to a higher regard than their personal convictions.

Give me a break. This not a case of people not doing business with sinners, that is never a problem. Personal hatred is the reason for all discrimination and that is why they always tell them the reason for the rejection. There would no point in it if they couldn't feel superior and make gays out as second class citizens.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Give me a break. This not a case of people not doing business with sinners, that is never a problem. Personal hatred is the reason for all discrimination and that is why they always tell them the reason for the rejection. There would no point in it if they couldn't feel superior and make gays out as second class citizens.

"personal hatred"..."feel superior"..."second class citizens"...Yep, you got all the buzz words in there. Feels good to project, doesn't it? Anyone with personal convictions that you don't agree with are guilty of all those things, right?

Reminds me of that other stupid thing...

 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

There is no such thing as a gay wedding. There is just a wedding, and if your problem is based on the genders of the people getting married, then you are discriminating based on identity.

I think saying there is no such thing as a gay wedding, for purposes of this discussion, is merely semantics.

And you may be discriminating, but you are not discriminating against the identity of the customer, as you had previously stated. So the question becomes, is it discrimination against the customer that really concerns you? If a baker says, no matter your sexual preference, I will not make a cake for a gay wedding, is there really discrimination against the person? Are you not then discriminating against someone for their belief/idea in the sanctity of gay marriage?

If I walk in and say I'd like a cake celebrating Pearl Harbor as it is considered a holiday in my religion, and you refuse... Are you not discriminating against my religion? If you have a policy that you do not serve to anyone who believes that, and an entire religion believes that, are you discriminating against the idea or the people? At what point does your idea vs. people argument become so entangled that one cannot decipher between the two?

And if you argue you don't have to serve because it is the "idea" that you wish to discriminate against, are you not opening Pandora's box for all sorts of discrimination?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

You probably should have read your links. In the first link, Justice Alito refers to it as "a legal fiction". That fiction only applies to certain types of businesses, and nowhere in the two rulings referenced does it say that businesses have a conscience. In fact, your links fail altogether to counter what I pointed out, which is essentially, words have meanings. A business does not have a conscience. It's owner does. This might legally allow them exception to certain laws, but not others. Would you care to try again, with less fail?

The business and it's owner are indistinguishable as regards rights, which is what both I and my links pointed out to you. People do not lose their rights when they either open or business, or band together in an organization.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Right, we should dream up hypotheticals all day long with which to pigeon hole people with, or play gotcha

Well, no. But I think it is usefull to demonstrate that many of those willing to ride roughshod over Christian business owners are not (I suspect) coming to this from a logical series of deduction, but rather supporting the side they empathize with the most. You see a homosexual being "discriminated against" by a Christian business owner, you sympathize with his or her plight, you find justifications for your desire to support them. The actual principle of suborning others closest, most personal, areas of individual sovereignty to your desire to make sure that no one ever has to feel different or unwanted, ever, isn't (see thread results) something that receives universal support.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

The business and it's owner are indistinguishable as regards rights, which is what both I and my links pointed out to you. People do not lose their rights when they either open or business, or band together in an organization.

That is not what the law says. You need to try and read a bit more. Let me give you a helpful example: let's say you are Amish, and very much so. You run a butchershop. You have religious opposition to modern technology. Does that exempt you from having to use modern testing and cleanliness equipment?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Well, no. But I think it is usefull to demonstrate that many of those willing to ride roughshod over Christian business owners are not (I suspect) coming to this from a logical series of deduction, but rather supporting the side they empathize with the most. You see a homosexual being "discriminated against" by a Christian business owner, you sympathize with his or her plight, you find justifications for your desire to support them. The actual principle of suborning others closest, most personal, areas of individual sovereignty to your desire to make sure that no one ever has to feel different or unwanted, ever, isn't (see thread results) something that receives universal support.

Well sure, I won't disagree with that. That's why there's final arbitrators like the Supreme Court and lower courts, which we then all have to abide by, and the unhappy ones need to then use political means to force a change, if they can.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

That is not what the law says. You need to try and read a bit more. Let me give you a helpful example: let's say you are Amish, and very much so. You run a butchershop. You have religious opposition to modern technology. Does that exempt you from having to use modern testing and cleanliness equipment?

:) our Rights of Conscience, like all our rights, are not limitless - they have endpoints when they reach a certain level of burden on others. The famous example is that you can't yell fire in a theater - you are not allowed to exercise your right to free speech in ways that irresponsibly creates risk to the lives and limbs of others. Deuce has brought up his pilot retesting (he's not allowed to fly without it) - the risk of a dangerous pilot to others is enough to justify overriding his individual objections, whatever they stem from; exercise of Deuce's rights do not overcome that level of burden to others. When creating public accommodation laws in order to break Jim Crow, we had to override individual rights because the burden placed on blacks by Jim Crow was systemic - an entire legal and social framework designed to bar Blacks from being able to access entire industries / services. Depending on the particulars, the butcher in your example is imposing such a burden on others - risking their lives and certainly their health. What is the comparable burden being placed on Homosexuals that would justify overriding individual rights?
 
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