View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
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  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #71
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    And one more thing - what religion requires its adherents to open stores at all? If a religion says "don't do business with such and such a group", then don't have that kind of business to begin with. For instance, my own religion forbids gay marriage...but there is NOTHING in the Bible that says, "Don't do business with gay people". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we must not do business with sinners in general. So if I had a bakery, sure, I'd bake them that cake - it's their money, and the fact that I'm selling that cake to them is no more supportive of gay marriage than selling guns is supportive of murder.

    In other words, the ones who are refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of their "Christian" beliefs need to go back and learn what the Bible does say...and what the Bible does not say.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #72
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    jamesrage's Avatar
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    The problem with your poll is that you're comparing apples and oranges. Membership in Nazi/KKK/NRA/whatever groups is a CHOICE. Being gay is not a choice - it's a BIOLOGICAL trait, something you're born with.
    Getting married is a choice.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #73
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Gay marriage is in idea that many people do not wish to promulgate.

    The christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant won't cater a gay wedding for anyone.

    Organizations are made up of people. A wedding is an organization of people. So discriminating against a group of people because you do not like their pro-life or pro-2nd amendment views is no different than discriminating against group of people because you do not like their views on marriage.

    Gay marriage is an idea not a person.
    There is no difference between a "gay" marriage and a marriage besides the genders of the people involved. You are discriminating against people based merely on their sexuality. I understand if some really evil people don't want to perpetuate the idea that we should all respect and love each other, regardless of stupid crap like being grossed out by anal sex, but I'd like to think that we don't make laws based on the wishes of really evil people.

    Public accommodation laws don't deal with contracts between businesses, which is what dealing with an organization like the KKK or NRA would fall under. You can't deny service to a member of such a group who walks into your store, but organizations don't go to stores. Laws are a lot more complicated than "my pet causes aren't getting special treatment so... discrimination!!"
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  4. #74
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Getting married is a choice.
    Then they should refuse all marriages - you can't say "well, these marriages are okay, but not those other ones". It's not right to agree to refuse to sell a product to someone based on choices that are a direct result of that customer's biological traits.

    When you finally grasp the idea that YES, homosexuality is something that people are BORN with (if to differing degrees), then you'll finally find yourself on the road out of the conservative echo chamber.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #75
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Hitler is dead, so he can't harm anyone.Making a cake for him does not harm anyone.
    The KKK is no longer a terrorist organization so they can't harm anyone.So selling 4x4 lumber and gas cans to them would not harm anyone.
    In the abortion debate the only side that is harmed is the child in the womb.So making pro-life pamphlets would not harm anyone.
    Advocating for 2nd amendment rights does not harm anyone so a NRA convention would not harm anyone.
    I think you were listing the KKK and Hitler because of the offense to sensibilities due to the violent nature and history to the two. Both being behavioural choices. How is it that being born gay, or black or a female can be offensive?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #76
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And one more thing - what religion requires its adherents to open stores at all? If a religion says "don't do business with such and such a group", then don't have that kind of business to begin with. For instance, my own religion forbids gay marriage...but there is NOTHING in the Bible that says, "Don't do business with gay people". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we must not do business with sinners in general.
    I am pretty sure the bible does not say you can be an accomplice is someone's sin. Jesus didn't buy the prostitute some hooker clothes, nor did he help the tax collector invent new ways of screwing people out of their money.

    snip...

    In other words, the ones who are refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of their "Christian" beliefs need to go back and learn what the Bible does say...and what the Bible does not say.

    So if I had a bakery, sure, I'd bake them that cake - it's their money, and the fact that I'm selling that cake to them is no more supportive of gay marriage than selling guns is supportive of murder.
    Selling a regular cake and selling a gun to someone is one thing.Someone telling you they need a gay wedding cake or they want a gun to kill their neighbor,ex-wife,husband or whoever is a totally different thing and it makes you an accomplices in the gay wedding and the murder .
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #77
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am pretty sure the bible does not say you can be an accomplice is someone's sin. Jesus didn't buy the prostitute some hooker clothes, nor did he help the tax collector invent new ways of screwing people out of their money.

    snip...

    In other words, the ones who are refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of their "Christian" beliefs need to go back and learn what the Bible does say...and what the Bible does not say.



    Selling a regular cake and selling a gun to someone is one thing.Someone telling you they need a gay wedding cake or they want a gun to kill their neighbor,ex-wife,husband or whoever is a totally different thing and it makes you an accomplices in the gay wedding and the murder .
    We don't care about all that. America isn't governed by the bible.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  8. #78
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Then they should refuse all marriages - you can't say "well, these marriages are okay, but not those other ones". It's not right to agree to refuse to sell a product to someone based on choices that are a direct result of that customer's biological traits..
    When you finally grasp the idea that YES, homosexuality is something that people are BORN with (if to differing degrees), then you'll finally find yourself on the road out of the conservative echo chamber
    When you find a gay gene then you can make that claim.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #79
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    We don't care about all that. America isn't governed by the bible.
    We as a country may not be governed by the bible.But at the same time the government can not interfere in someone exercising their religion.Plus this post was in response to someone trying to claim that the bible allows someone to be an accomplice to someone's sin. I realize that if you are an atheist or a phony religious person then the bible to you is no different than a harry potter book.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #80
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.
    Exactly. That is why all individuals should be allowed their own freedom of choice. The business is a tool among other things, and if the owner of a tool does not want to use it for purposes they find objectionable they should not have to.

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