View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
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  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #51
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?
    So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  2. #52
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
    Nazis actually committed genocide. Who does being gay harm?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #53
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Nazis actually committed genocide. Who does being gay harm?
    Please, if you refuse to serve nazi robot unicorns, you're discriminating.

  4. #54
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
    Only if I had one on the menu. Most wouldn't though. You can't demand special items not normally supplied. A wedding cake is not a special item for a bakery that does weddings so your analogy is faulty. It is strange that you don't understand what public accommodation laws are and how they are enforced. Are you an American citizen?

  5. #55
    A grand violation

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Please, if you refuse to serve nazi robot unicorns, you're discriminating.
    But what if the Nazi robot unicorn is from a parallel earth?

  6. #56
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    If a baker says, no matter your sexual preference, I will not make a cake for a gay wedding, is there really discrimination against the person? Are you not then discriminating against someone for their belief/idea in the sanctity of gay marriage?
    Yes, no. You are saying that you will not do business with someone (the person whose wedding it is) because of their sexual orientation. Beliefs and ideas, meanwhile, are NOT IDENTITY. Ideas are not protected against discrimination. Identity is.

    If I walk in and say I'd like a cake celebrating Pearl Harbor as it is considered a holiday in my religion, and you refuse... Are you not discriminating against my religion? If you have a policy that you do not serve to anyone who believes that, and an entire religion believes that, are you discriminating against the idea or the people? At what point does your idea vs. people argument become so entangled that one cannot decipher between the two?
    Congratulations, you have now demonstrated why giving any legal credence to beliefs is complete BS. You are asking for the law to determine the sincerity of a belief. We both know that there is no religion that holds the bombing of Pearl Harbor as a holiday. But someone could simply make up their own faith and sincerely hold that belief. Ergo, no beliefs at all should have special protection under the law. Every single one should be treated exactly the same.

    And if you argue you don't have to serve because it is the "idea" that you wish to discriminate against, are you not opening Pandora's box for all sorts of discrimination?
    No. I as the baker will make you the cake, no matter what you believe. But I won't write "hooray for the bombing of Pearl Harbor" on it. Who and what you are will not stop us from transacting. But I offer what I offer. Now, I'll make you the same cake I'll make for someone else even if you're going to use it for a celebration of the bombing. I don't care what it's for. It's not really any of my business. Nothing about you will stop me from doing the same transaction I would do with anyone else. Not even your beliefs.

    You keep either linking hatred of gays as an intrinsic part of your religion, or not understanding the difference between a person believing something and a person being something.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  7. #57
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Only if I had one on the menu. Most wouldn't though. You can't demand special items not normally supplied. A wedding cake is not a special item for a bakery that does weddings so your analogy is faulty. It is strange that you don't understand what public accommodation laws are and how they are enforced. Are you an American citizen?
    There isn't a bakery on the planet that has a menu like -
    Happy Birthday Billy
    Happy Birthday William
    Happy Birthday Willy
    Happy Birthday Bill
    Happy Birthday Bobby
    Happy Birthday Bob
    Happy Birthday Robert
    Happy Birthday Robby

    A bakery basically states that they will put whatever writing they agree to on the cake. There is no list of what they can put on a cake. A really pathetic argument... I'm actually embarrassed for you for even trying to make it...

    Public accommodation laws are so vaguely defined that it's amazing to me that they pass challenge in court. If they were clear and equitable, this whole argument would be moot. The problem is that the law isn't applied equitably, it is applied according to who yells the loudest. If a Nazi went into a Kosher Jewish bakery and asked for a cake with "Happy Birthday Hitler!" on it, should the bakery be required by law to provide the cake, since they just produced the exact same cake (white cake with raspberry filling and buttercream frosting) that said "Happy Birthday Hiller!" We have to have an answer to this question in order to apply this law equitably. It's not about how you feel about the person being refused service or the person refusing service, but about the law and making sure that it is applied equitably (with defined areas of latitude when needed).
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  8. #58
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Here's the problem I have with the poll, you list along with gays, Hitler and the KKK. Being gay harms NO ONE.
    Hitler is dead, so he can't harm anyone.Making a cake for him does not harm anyone.
    The KKK is no longer a terrorist organization so they can't harm anyone.So selling 4x4 lumber and gas cans to them would not harm anyone.
    In the abortion debate the only side that is harmed is the child in the womb.So making pro-life pamphlets would not harm anyone.
    Advocating for 2nd amendment rights does not harm anyone so a NRA convention would not harm anyone.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #59
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Hitler is dead
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  10. #60
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Hitler is dead? No way! :Kappa:

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